Trapping deer with a helicopter

[Baker]

Something many of you may never have seen, Video showing deer trapping in the brush country along the Rio Grand River

 

[Turkish]

What is the reason they’re doing this?

Seems like a lot of trouble and expense for a doe quota. ;)

 

[Feelslikefar.]

That's almost as bad as using trail cameras. ;)

 

[Telemark]

Interesting. Why nets instead of tranq darts?

You're not kidding about the thorns and spikes. Nopal is bad enough, but the cholla almost seem like they seek you out.

That crew seems like real pros. I hope the cartels don't find out about that pilot and give him the old plato-o-plomo ultimatum.

 

[Baker]

What is the reason they’re doing this?

Seems like a lot of trouble and expense for a doe quota. ;)

Lol, Imagine a world where...

We actually sell the does. With a reputation for having the highest quality native genetics in Mexico we have buyers every year wanting to buy our does to improve genetics on their ranch. These does will be bred to pen raised bucks the owner has then released to his ranch for pasture born fawns. Buyer pays for helicopter trapping and I make a nice profit. Good for the does. Good for the buyer. Good for me.

In just a few hours I have removed 50 does from the ranch . Don't have to have a bunch of Rednecks running around shooting up the place all season stressing the herd and ruining the ambience of the camp. Perfect!

 

[Baker]

That's almost as bad as using trail cameras. ;

I was laughing putting this video together thinking about all the rhetoric recently about technology ruining hunting. Kept imagining a drone trying to ' herd' deer around manipulating their travel.

 

[Baker]

Interesting. Why nets instead of tranq darts?

You're not kidding about the thorns and spikes. Nopal is bad enough, but the cholla almost seem like they seek you out.

That crew seems like real pros. I hope the cartels don't find out about that pilot and give him the old plato-o-plomo ultimatum.

We have used ground blinds with tranq darts before. Very slow and harder to trap enough timely for transport . Shooting a dart from a helicopter would be nearly impossible. The helicopter with a net is fast , efficient with zero mortality ever thru the years .

 

[Telemark]

Shooting a dart from a helicopter would be nearly impossible. The helicopter with a net is fast , efficient with zero mortality ever thru the years .

Interesting. I would have thought a dart gun would be effective, but I've never tried to shoot from a helicopter. That crew is top-notch.

 

[Turkish]

Lol, Imagine a world where...

We actually sell the does. With a reputation for having the highest quality native genetics in Mexico we have buyers every year wanting to buy our does to improve genetics on their ranch. These does will be bred to pen raised bucks the owner has then released to his ranch for pasture born fawns. Buyer pays for helicopter trapping and I make a nice profit. Good for the does. Good for the buyer. Good for me.

In just a few hours I have removed 50 does from the ranch . Don't have to have a bunch of Rednecks running around shooting up the place all season stressing the herd and ruining the ambience of the camp. Perfect!

Lol. How does one objectively assess a single doe’s genes?

 

[Ikeman]

Lol. How does one objectively assess a single doe’s genes?

He stated that his ranch is known for some of the best genetics in Mexico, not that he was guaranteeing that every doe contained the best genetics.

The person buying, breeding, and releasing the doe realistically gets at least 2 deer (possibly 3 if she births twins) with a high chance of good genetics, and 50% of the fawn’s progeny is known outright by using a breeder buck.

It seems like a win/win for the herd and his pocketbook to handle doe depredation this way rather than sharpshooting.


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[Turkish]

I’m happy for baker. My snark is directed toward his buyers. My question was more of “By what metric are his genetics different?” I thought the ability to influence genetics in a free range herd (and a sufficiently large enclosed one, for that matter) had been debunked long ago.

 

[Ikeman]

I’m happy for baker. My snark is directed toward his buyers. My question was more of “By what metric are his genetics different?” I thought the ability to influence genetics in a free range herd (and a sufficiently large enclosed one, for that matter) had been debunked long ago.

Epigenetics are pretty wild. Mammal mothers that have had access to higher nutrition for the entirety of their lives pass on genes that “turn on” for their offspring that they themselves didn’t have. When this happens over multiple generations, the difference in genetic expression can be pretty drastic. It has been shown that the nutritional plane a doe had during pregnancy will affect her male offspring’s antler potential for the entirety of his life, even after his nutritional plane has improved later in life. I can only assume that the same epigenetic improvement happens for doe fawns as well.

Moving deer from an area that has proven to have higher quality genetic expression to areas that do not could be a decent way to jumpstart these epigenetic changes in the local herd... by simply transplanting deer that already have these epigenetic selections activated.

If the available nutrition doesn’t rise to maintain these epigenetic selections, though, it is surely a short lived benefit.


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[Telemark]

It has been shown that the nutritional plane a doe had during pregnancy will affect her male offspring’s antler potential for the entirety of his life, even after his nutritional plane has improved later in life

Interesting. That makes a really strong case for food plots. I think I will devote more time to that this year. And fruit trees, because I'm addicted.

I got my mineral sites out a couple years ago, so I hope that's helping. I'm working with two very different populations, but both need cold season food. I guess both populations would probably benefit from high-protein food sources in the summer, too.

 

[Turkish]

Epigenetics are pretty wild. Mammal mothers that have had access to higher nutrition for the entirety of their lives pass on genes that “turn on” for their offspring that they themselves didn’t have. When this happens over multiple generations, the difference in genetic expression can be pretty drastic. It has been shown that the nutritional plane a doe had during pregnancy will affect her male offspring’s antler potential for the entirety of his life, even after his nutritional plane has improved later in life. I can only assume that the same epigenetic improvement happens for doe fawns as well.

Moving deer from an area that has proven to have higher quality genetic expression to areas that do not could be a decent way to jumpstart these epigenetic changes in the local herd... by simply transplanting deer that already have these epigenetic selections activated.

If the available nutrition doesn’t rise to maintain these epigenetic selections, though, it is surely a short lived benefit.


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Respectfully, that was all kinda my point and I’m well aware of all that. You just described why they’re valuable for their exceptional health and fitness and on a generational basis — credit to baker. To me that’s different than their being from some pocket of genetic standouts. Semantics I guess, but elevated epigenetic quality is another way of saying “healthy and fit.”

 

[Hoytvectrix]

I'm kind of curious about the logistics of moving the 50 or so live wild animals. I am assuming this is for another ranch in Mexico because I would think the permitting would be brutal to bring them back into the states.

Thanks Baker! This was certainly interesting. The whole video I kept thinking to myself why would someone go to these lengths and you buried the lede with the great explanation at the end. I was also really surprised how open things look from the air vs on the ground.

 

[Ikeman]

Respectfully, that was all kinda my point and I’m well aware of all that. You just described why they’re valuable for their exceptional health and fitness and on a generational basis — credit to baker. To me that’s different than their being from some pocket of genetic standouts. Semantics I guess, but elevated epigenetic quality is another way of saying “healthy and fit.”

It is drastically different than “healthy and fit” much of that epigenetics is set in stone when the doe conceives the fawn. “Healthy and fit” implies results possible from improving diet and environment. That can not be done with epigenetics after the fawn is born.


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[Turkish]

It is drastically different than “healthy and fit” much of that epigenetics is set in stone when the doe conceives the fawn. “Healthy and fit” implies results possible from improving diet and environment. That can not be done with epigenetics after the fawn is born.


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I think we’re talking past each other a bit. Are the does’ genetics superior from some inherent unstoppable trait from the Creator or because of the health and fitness of the herd? That was my point.

I can see the appeal of these does to deer pens nearly as much as buying genetically engineered bucks.

Has there been research on how long the epigenetic triggers stay “turned on?” I know MSU did research on the number of generations to see an improvement. I thought I heard that someone (maybe Cesar Kleburg) was researching how fast the reverse works but that it had not concluded. Fascinating stuff.

 

[Telemark]

I think we’re talking past each other a bit. Are the does’ genetics superior from some inherent unstoppable trait from the Creator or because of the health and fitness of the herd? That was my point.

My understanding is he's saying that is a false dichotomy, and both factors are important. Generations of proper herd management yields a herd with superior genetics and superior health and fitness, and the offspring of Baker's does are likely to have superior genetics compared to those of deer born to does from other populations.

The herd also improves its own genetic profile through their mate selection process. Healthy, fit bucks, who have fulfilled their genetic potential get to mate more often than lesser bucks, improving the overall genetics of the herd. Healthy does that were bred by healthy, fit, genetically superior bucks give birth to healthy, genetically superior offspring. That cycle repeats every generation, and that contributes to genetic improvement in the herd over the years.

Thus, the two factors of health and genetics are intertwined and create a positive feedback loop in the herd, which ends up fitter, healthier, and genetically superior compared to what it used to be, and compared to other herds.

The people buying the does could probably get similar results by properly managing their own herd for several generations, but that's not the business they're in, so they buy does from Baker.

 

[Ikeman]

My understanding is he's saying that is a false dichotomy, and both factors are important. Generations of proper herd management yields a herd with superior genetics and superior health and fitness, and the offspring of Baker's does are likely to have superior genetics compared to those of deer born to does from other populations.

The herd also improves its own genetic profile through their mate selection process. Healthy, fit bucks, who have fulfilled their genetic potential get to mate more often than lesser bucks, improving the overall genetics of the herd. Healthy does that were bred by healthy, fit, genetically superior bucks give birth to healthy, genetically superior offspring. That cycle repeats every generation, and that contributes to genetic improvement in the herd over the years.

Thus, the two factors of health and genetics are intertwined and create a positive feedback loop in the herd, which ends up fitter, healthier, and genetically superior compared to what it used to be, and compared to other herds.

The people buying the does could probably get similar results by properly managing their own herd for several generations, but that's not the business they're in, so they buy does from Baker.

Excellent description.

The change is absolutely possible across generations without transporting animals…. But a healthy doe can drop fawns for as long as 15 years according to some senescence studies. That means that any “less than desirable” epigenetics she had at her birth will affect fawns for up to a decade and a half in the local area.

With that in mind, I have been wondering if you could jump start the epigenetic changes (after habitat and nutritional improvement) by intentionally targeting and removing the OLDER does (and older, underperforming bucks as well) that were born in lower nutritional conditions. That would rapidly increase the percentage of “breeding animals” in the herd that were born into better conditions, thus increasing the likelihood of them passing on better traits.

There aren’t many people out there capable of this kind of management intensity at a scale large enough to truly make a local population level difference, though, and there isn’t any research around this idea to show that it actually has an effect. Just my own musings.


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[Telemark]

@Baker

Do you have a high fence around your Mexico ranch, too? Do you feed protein there during the summer?