Thistle nutrient?

[Derek Reese 29]

Hey everyone,
This is a bit of a stretch but I believe somewhere in the past (I skimmed the forum posts briefly and couldn’t find it) that someone had mentioned that if you have thistle in your field there is some nutrient missing. I cannot remember what it was. My front field has just one concentrated area of thistle, but it gets quite thick and outgrows my clover and rye. I don’t really want to spray (I have hit it with gly in the past), but what are my options..it’s small enough that I could probably spend half a day pulling them and get most of them, but even with recent mowing it is still popping up..thanks in advance..pic for reference of what else is growing there now (clover/rye/pasja turnips)

 

[SD51555]

I have no followers at the church of thistles, but I am very pro-thistle. So do with this what you will.

Thistle is an iodine accumulator, compaction buster, and a favorite of gold finch and bees. Thistle is also auto-toxic, meaning that it will eventually snuff itself out, so long as it wasn't there before you started. Thistle is a response plant. Some places it can endure because nothing else can grow there, even after the thistle dies out. It'll just wait out the allelopathic effects of it's own existence and return.

It's a long game view, but I'd just leave it and push natural life. It'll take a few seasons, but it will heal and the thistle should go away. I've never seen thistle spread where there is no new opening (tillage, overgrazing, drought, or spraying) to give it an open runway.

 

[Derek Reese 29]

That’s interesting as this spot is a little damp but in full sun. No idea how it is very different from the rest of the half acre field around it though…and I have never tilled this field (and probably never will)

 

[SD51555]

That’s interesting as this spot is a little damp but in full sun. No idea how it is very different from the rest of the half acre field around it though…and I have never tilled this field (and probably never will)

If you do have the urge to do something, scatter a couple bales of straw, a 40 lb bag of gypsum, and a pound of grocery store flax seed on it.

 

[Turkey Creek]

Not necessarily doable in your case, but at least with the noxious weed thistle I am used to dealing with prescribed fire in the Spring is your friend. They are a biennial plant, they sprout the year before and form a rosette, second year they bolt and produce the flower stalk. Run a hot fire over them in the Spring and you can kill the majority of the rosettes. The areas we burn in the Spring show very few thistles compared to non burned areas. They also only establish in areas with exposed soil/ disturbance for the most part. Seed is wind blown (like Dandelion) so it has a hard time reaching the soil surface on sites with good vegetative cover.

 

[Derek Reese 29]

Not necessarily doable in your case, but at least with the noxious weed thistle I am used to dealing with prescribed fire in the Spring is your friend. They are a biennial plant, they sprout the year before and form a rosette, second year they bolt and produce the flower stalk. Run a hot fire over them in the Spring and you can kill the majority of the rosettes. The areas we burn in the Spring show very few thistles compared to non burned areas. They also only establish in areas with exposed soil/ disturbance for the most part. Seed is wind blown (like Dandelion) so it has a hard time reaching the soil surface on sites with good vegetative cover.

I burned this field a few months after buying the property..it was a great fire, as there was about a foot deep thatch of old reef canary grass..I’m wondering if I just took a weed torch (one of those awesome things you hook to a grill tank of propane) and just incinerate the individual plants..the whole of the thistle patch probably isn’t more than 150-200 sq ft..it would beat pulling out the suckers anyway…

 

[Turkey Creek]

It might be worth experimenting with the idea on a small scale.

 

[bigboreblr]

Spot spray with 2,4D and apply rye. 2,4 D is desgiend to not disturb grasses. Mature clover will be ok, young clover will be toast. Mark it with a stick and give it some extra clover during frost seeding.

The hippies like to use vinegar. Could do the same thing with vinegar.

 

[Lucky_P]

Having spent years working on eradication of Canadian/musk/nodding thistle from my pastures, there is no way in hell that I'm going to foster growing them, regardless of whether they 'signal a soil deficiency', or 'pull up deep nutrients. I still keep an eye out for and grub out every one I see. My kids hate them with a passion, because they were forced to spend countless hours topping them while older brother sprayed them.
Milk thistle... I'm less anal about. I'll mow them down, but don't go out of my way to dig them out.

 

[SD51555]

Having spent years working on eradication of Canadian/musk/nodding thistle from my pastures, there is no way in hell that I'm going to foster growing them, regardless of whether they 'signal a soil deficiency', or 'pull up deep nutrients. I still keep an eye out for and grub out every one I see. My kids hate them with a passion, because they were forced to spend countless hours topping them while older brother sprayed them.
Milk thistle... I'm less anal about. I'll mow them down, but don't go out of my way to dig them out.

I get that. Growing up on the farm, my dad would graze the pasture down to fairway height and then the bull thistle would explode. We'd go out and mow them every so often, but never seemed to beat them. I wish I could go back knowing what I know now and try some things to put them back to sleep.

I've had thistle explosions on my place. They always came after spraying or from the ashes of a burn pile. I let them all go because I didn't want to spray anything. They had their way for two years, and then by the third year, they petered out. Canada thistle.

I've got one patch in my north food plot that's in it's second year. It's growing in my super perennial combo. It'll be interesting to see if those go back to sleep for next season.

 

[Tree Spud]

I nuke every thistle I see with Gly. It's invasive and outcompetes other plants for nutrients & water. Clovers, vetch, & legumes much better choice for nutrient scavenging.

 

[Native Hunter]

The only thistle I have is Cirsium Discolor, and I kill every single one I can find. It's never going to just die out, and it doesn't need kind of opening to spread. I see it coming up in new places where there is not any kind of ground disturbance. This thistle is troublesome in a prairie, because it can germinate very late in the year and do its dirty work at a time when you need to be hunting deer and not be out hunting thistles.

 

[PatinPA]

Don't try to pull it out. There is a fairly big taproot usually and it will just break off and regrow. I had a problem with it in my home garden. I think if you want to get rid of it. Just spot spray it

 

[Tree Spud]

The only thistle I have is Cirsium Discolor, and I kill every single one I can find. It's never going to just die out, and it doesn't need kind of opening to spread. I see it coming up in new places where there is not any kind of ground disturbance. This thistle is troublesome in a prairie, because it can germinate very late in the year and do its dirty work at a time when you need to be hunting deer and not be out hunting thistles.

I have the same problem. It shows up in tall grasses and weeds. If i don't terminate with gly, it just ends up spreading.

 

[4wanderingeyes]

I have one section of a foodplot that has had thistle growing in it for as long as I made the plot back in 2013-14. The first 5 ish years I wasnt her enough to do anything about them, so they grew every year. I am here now, and I am determined to win. I let them almost get to flower, then mow them down, then when they start popping up again, I spray them. It has helped a lot, and rather then thousands, I am dealing with hundreds. Mostly along the north side of the plot.

 

[bigboreblr]

I neglected cleaning up my trees cages this summer. I cut one level to the ground with a knife and poured a tiny bit of the green tordon RTU. Green is picloram, the red one is triclopyr. Can't get the red one in NY. I believe the green has some 2,4 D in it too. So far, the pristine apple tree on M111 is dong fine. Probably one of my best tilled ones too.

Saw ths site you might want to read.

Reading weeds to improve soil health - Ohio Ag Net | Ohio's Country Journal

By James Hoorman, Hoorman Soil Health Services Weeds often tell a story about how a farm is managed.

ocj.com

What Weeds Tell You About Your Soil — Johnny Appleseed Organic

By Yuvraj Singh Khamare

www.johnnyappleseed.com

Sow thistle might be different than what you have. According to the 2nd site, sow thistle indicates low iron. Get any noticable yellowing of your planting there? iron is a very common additive to lawns, especially ones that remove the cuttings. Would make sense and old hay pasture would have low iron issues. Also, look into why you have low iron. If I recall iron-maganese is a ratio nature keeps in balance like C-N. To get more iron out of the soil, you might need more maganese, if the iron is there. IF your pH is out of range, could be an issue too with getting certain nutrients out of the soil. If the iron isn't there, or the soil needs a few years to recover, I think the big stores sell ironite. Certain lawn fertilizers have mostly nitrogren, a litle phosphorus, and some iron. You could also get a custom mix from a ferilizer dealer. Many of them can add liquid chemicals while blending, or small pellets to the blend.

A few years ago, i developed a little list from several states environmetal sites neighboring NY. Saw what they said deer liked to eat, and made small list of pictures to take with me while hunting public land. Find where they're eating. The year I made it, got a real nice 8 pointer in the PA state forest. Found green briar. Short story long..... sow thistle aka pickly lettuce is on the list.

Are you growing straight clover, or doing the rye / brassica rotation there?

My problem is red aramath / pigweed in my little plot at home. Soil compaction they say is the issue. I do plan on rototilling or harrowing my field in a year or two. I think in dense clay soils, building up organic matter and incorporating it in deeper every 5 years or so is a good way to improve overall quality. Im no expert. But, you dig down a few inches and the clay gets harder and harder. I'm debating whether to keep my 1/3 acre plot going, or put in 2 or 3 acres of apple trees and do a farmside stand along with hunting out back. NY has a lucrative wine / cider/ distillery industry for farmers. I live in an area where NYC folk have vacation homes, so there is tons of those places nearby that would like harrison, hewes, rocbury russet, and so on.

IF I were to do my fruit trees again, I would of had a farmer run a subsoiler in the area.

 

[Bill]

I'm believing SD here. I had thistle pretty bad in an old switch grass field the past couple years. Nothing I could really do because there were far to many to spot spray in 20 acres. Didn't want to mow because I like the field tall in November. This year none to speak of.

I did spray some early in a clover plot this summer and more returned. I mowed them but haven't killed them, those are about 2 foot tall now. Kinda want to see what happens by leaving them alone. its not like there isn't plenty of clover around them.

 

[nwmn]

Late to the party here. I've been battling canadian and bull thistle for 3 years now. I've won many battles but the war is not over, and never will be. I was turned to a chemical called milestone as the most effective herbicide. You can buy a quart of it online for about $85 and it will last. I use a backpack sprayer primarily now and use .5 - 1 oz of milestone in my 4.5 gallon tank. I've been out countless hours with my headlamp and sprayer knocking them back this summer already and have taken care of many colonies that took over an area. Another chemical you can use that is safe on brassicas is stinger. I buy a generic clopyralid product called sonora and it's effective. They say to not spray milestone within the rootzone of oaks, so in forested areas when I'm using my boomless sprayer I use clopyralid(stinger/sonora) and for spot spraying I prefer aminopyralid(milestone). It'll toast your clover, but i'd rather have to replant than to deal with thistles. That being said, you can plant winter rye and brassica to fill in those spots.

These two products are more effective than using 24d or gly since it will actually kill it back to the roots vs just top killing the plant. If you pull, mow or spray glyphosate on canada thistle, you'll just make it mad and it'll send up multiple plants to replace the ones knocked back.