The start of a new orchard

[Peeps]

Just finished opening 2 new areas for orchards. Can't wait to plant and cage in the spring. In the mean time I'm thinking about broadcasting winter rye into them in August to get something worth while growing and some green manure in the spring.

 

[Peeps]

 

[huntall]

That's great! It's a great feeling when you get one going! Can't wait to see pictures

 

[wklman]

Looks like a good spot for an orchard. It's always fun to start a new project,hard work, but a lot of fun.

 

[SD51555]

Very nice! Consider what you'll plant in between your trees. I've pondered getting a solid stand of clover going (with a rye nurse crop) into something like that to feed nitrogen to your trees once their in.

 

[Bowsnbucks]

With clover in an orchard, when you spray for insects on your trees - you may end up killing the bees that are your best pollinators. Something to keep in mind. A couple local orchard men plant grass for just that reason.

 

[Dan Wombles]

Very nice! Consider what you'll plant in between your trees. I've pondered getting a solid stand of clover going (with a rye nurse crop) into something like that to feed nitrogen to your trees once their in.

If you want great tasting apples, avoid clover. Nitrogen water logs the apples, diluting the natural flavor. Use nitrogen on young trees to accelerate growth of the trees frame. Once the tree is in production, starve the tree of nitrogen; at this point you want quality fruit production, not vegetative growth.

 

[Rally1148]

I haven't heard this before. Given clover's shallow roots and an apple's much deeper roots...I'd need to see some research showing this to be true (doubting Thomas...sorry)

I"m not disagreeing, just pondering. Wouldn't cutting the clover around the trees provide nitrogen as it decomposes? I thought that usually clover, end legumes, generally only provide N when they are mowed and act as a green mulch.

 

[Rally1148]

Nitrogen is stored in nodules on the roots of clover and other legumes. Generally, most of the nitrogen is used by the legumes themselves. Some is available for other things growing in the same root zone as the clover (grass for example, almost all lawn mixes used to have a percentage of white dutch clover). Most of the N in legume roots is stored until the plant is terminated...the N is then more available for other plants (which is why we terminate red clover in foodplots before planting brassicas or corn for example). Synthetic N is far more mobile in soil than is the N "made" by legumes.

I'm not saying growing clover under apples is the "right" thing to do...just that I've never seen any research showing it leads to too much N for ideal fruit flavoring.

Got it. I didn't realize that it was stored until it was terminated, or that it was available for other plants in the root zone. I just figured that it used the N to become green and leafy, and it was then released when it was decomposed.

Again, I'm not saying to use clover, nor am I really saying to not use it. I was just wondering about the process.

 

[Dan Wombles]

Search web for university studies of apple production, organic apple studies, production of quality cider apples, etc., and many mention the effect of nitrogen on quality of apples; such as reduced flavor quality, firmness and poorer storage times. This is not new science; cider orchards in England for centuries have grown grass under their trees for two reasons: the grass soaks up nitrogen from the soil, providing more dense flavor resulting in a higher quality cider, and provides a cushion for the apples when they fall to the ground. They even let sheep graze the grass to remove excess nitrogen. Current orchards pour nitrogen to the trees to maximize poundage of the apples; you will notice store bought apples are crisp and juicy, but bland.

Read the section on nitrogen at:
http://www.cider.org.uk/frameset.htm

 

[Dan Wombles]

smsmith, if we grow apples that have more dense flavors, due to less percentage water and more percentage of sugars, would they not be better for deer as well as human consumption?

 

[Ben.MN/WI]

View attachment 5798 Just finished opening 2 new areas for orchards. Can't wait to plant and cage in the spring. In the mean time I'm thinking about broadcasting winter rye into them in August to get something worth while growing and some green manure in the spring.

Nice. I think planting any type of a cover crop is a good idea. A smother crop of buckwheat might be a good way to build up soil as well as smother weed seeds that are in the soil. Buckwheat would kill off at the first frost though, but it grows really fast in warm weather.

If buckwheat isn't an option, I would consider mixing something with the winter rye to provide some different options for the deer and also possibly build up the soil a little more. Maybe mixing in some field peas for their nitrogen or tillage radish for the nitrogen scavenging would be a good addition to the rye. There really isn't a wrong answer though, any type of cover crop would be better than allowing the weeds to have way.

After you plant your orchard next year, I'd consider planting buckwheat between your fruit tree cages within the same row. Then you don't have to try to mow between the cages and you can plant something else in the main aisle between the tree rows. Buckwheat is a great smother crop to reduce weed pressure and it also helps build the soil. If you let it flower and go to seed, you'll have lots of seed in the soil to have another crop there the following year.

 

[Dan Wombles]

Better how? Nutritionally? Most of the stuff I've seen on apples/pears and deer nutrition is that they are generally considered "desserts". Better tasting...maybe? I've seen deer ignore sweet, juicy, fragrant McIntosh apples and go for tart, dry, nasty little crabapples. What I think tastes good isn't necessarily what a deer thinks tastes good.

I look at my fruit trees as a source of high sugar food for deer and other critters...but mainly as a place to intercept deer coming from/to. I don't spend a lot of time trying to improve my local herd's nutrition as I only have 87 acres and I'm aware of the fact that deer don't spend their entire lives on my little chunk of the world.

I'm not an orchardist...I'm a hobby and wildlife fruit grower. I also don't spray my trees...or spray as little as is humanly possible. I'm not into maximizing production, nutrients, or aesthetic qualities of fruit. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with those things...just that it isn't my cup of tea.

smsmith, we are similar. I do not spray my trees, I'm a hobby grower, I'm not into maximizing production, etc. Probably our main difference is I use some of my apples for making cider, apple butter, etc., and I leave some for the deer (I have enough trees to do both). Your comment above about producing a source of high sugar food supports what I have been trying to say: minimize the nitrogen on established trees and your apples will have a much higher sugar content! What does a deer go after first, the sweet white oak acorn, or the bitter, high tanic-acid red oak acorn? If we provide apples with a higher sugar content, deer will prefer them over waterlogged apples most of the time.

 

[Rally1148]

Search web for university studies of apple production, organic apple studies, production of quality cider apples, etc., and many mention the effect of nitrogen on quality of apples; such as reduced flavor quality, firmness and poorer storage times. This is not new science; cider orchards in England for centuries have grown grass under their trees for two reasons: the grass soaks up nitrogen from the soil, providing more dense flavor resulting in a higher quality cider, and provides a cushion for the apples when they fall to the ground. They even let sheep graze the grass to remove excess nitrogen. Current orchards pour nitrogen to the trees to maximize poundage of the apples; you will notice store bought apples are crisp and juicy, but bland.

Read the section on nitrogen at:
http://www.cider.org.uk/frameset.htm

With which cider apple varieties do you have luck using no spray?

 

[sandbur]

Peeps-You should check the pH right away and apply lime, if needed before planting the rye.

 

[Dan Wombles]

So far, I have 20 pruducing vintage varieties and 25 younger vintage varieties yet to produce, and I do not spray any of them. I only propagate vintage varieties. My most mature varieties with good production:
Harrison
Golden russet
Roxbury russet
Black twig
Arkansas black
Graniwinkle
Michelin
Baldwin
Yates
Northern spy
Grimes golden
Winesap
Rome beauty

 

[Peeps]

Peeps-You should check the pH right away and apply lime, if needed before planting the rye.

I had a soil test done on an area 50 yards from this orchard and surprisingly the pH came back at 6.3.

 

[Peeps]

Attatched is a pic of what the opening looks like today. WR growing in that beach sand with some clover as well. Trying to start the process of building some OM.

 

[wiscwhip]

Peeps that area looks eerily similar to the plots on our old place. You do have far better trees surrounding the plot than we did. 20' Jackpine, Penn sedge, and seedling jackpine. With all those birch in the distance, it seems like it might have a higher water table than our land. The water table on our land ran between 7'-10'.