Catscratch
5 year old buck +
Anybody got a guess? I read up on the internet but have no experience judging.
Teeth Pics... Age???
- Thread starter Catscratch
- Start date
Turkey Creek
5 year old buck +
Tooth wear is highly variable. Even our biologists who look at 100s of deer a year here will just say 3.5 years or older. Tooth aging under a microscope is more of a science.
Catscratch
5 year old buck +
Interesting. What other indicators are looked at?
I know the angle isn't the best. Working in the dark on a head that was killed on Saturday with 70 degree temps everyday since. He didn't smell great and I wasn't up to doing more tinkering than I thought I needed to.
Catscratch
5 year old buck +
I see what you are saying. Just looking for ideas/guesses as I've never even tried to age a deer before other than on the hoof. To honest with you, if he is big enough that I want to shoot him then I tend to just take the shot, age hasn't mattered much before. I'm in a different hunting and land owning situation now and all of a sudden I find myself kind of caring about age... I sincerely hope this deer is 4.5 or older to "justify" killing him. If you guys all said he was 2.5-3.5 I would be kicking myself a little right now.
A clear view of the width of the dentine vs enamel on the lingual crest is ideal....this is the standard comparison used for tooth ware aging.
ncstewart
5 year old buck +
^^^ he is spot on. You have to be able to see the top of the teeth wear. The side view doesn't tell ya anything.
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yoderjac
5 year old buck +
I would not venture a guess. Aging via jawbone requires a local experience base. Tooth wear has a dietary component. When you get beyond the first couple years the amount of abrasive material in the diet becomes significant. The method works reasonably well when done by someone experienced with reading jawbones of the local deer herd. They have done some studies comparing the judgments of multiple professionals of the same jawbones and there was significant variability which got worse with older deer.
Folks who read a lot of jawbones locally can give you the best estimate.
Here is one short paper: http://www.deerage.com/pdf/NobleFoundationAgingStudy2page.pdf
Thanks,
Jack
Folks who read a lot of jawbones locally can give you the best estimate.
Here is one short paper: http://www.deerage.com/pdf/NobleFoundationAgingStudy2page.pdf
Thanks,
Jack
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Tap
5 year old buck +
Tooth wear varies from region to region, deer to deer, and diet to diet.
I've sent several deer incisors to the Deer Age lab, and for my area, I can say this... At 2.5 years, the premolars will show almost zero wear.
At 3.5 some dentine will show on the premolars but most teeth are still pretty sharp. At 4.5 there is some wear on that rear premolar, but there is still more enamel showing than dentine. I've only seen a few jaws estimated to be 5.5 or older, but at 5.5, most teeth are showing a fair amount of dentine.
I don't put a lot of faith in aging by tooth wear other than to put deer in certain categories. Fawn, <18 months, then young adult, followed by middle age, and finally old. Unfortunately, I don't see many in the "old" category.
Send the incisors to Deer Age for a better estimate, but even lab aging isn't 100%.
I'm waiting for an envelope in the mail from Deer Age now. $25 and about 3 months to get results.
If I had to take a guess, I'd put your deer in the middle age class...maybe 5.5, But I agree with the other comments that the photo angle is not the best.
I've sent several deer incisors to the Deer Age lab, and for my area, I can say this... At 2.5 years, the premolars will show almost zero wear.
At 3.5 some dentine will show on the premolars but most teeth are still pretty sharp. At 4.5 there is some wear on that rear premolar, but there is still more enamel showing than dentine. I've only seen a few jaws estimated to be 5.5 or older, but at 5.5, most teeth are showing a fair amount of dentine.
I don't put a lot of faith in aging by tooth wear other than to put deer in certain categories. Fawn, <18 months, then young adult, followed by middle age, and finally old. Unfortunately, I don't see many in the "old" category.
Send the incisors to Deer Age for a better estimate, but even lab aging isn't 100%.
I'm waiting for an envelope in the mail from Deer Age now. $25 and about 3 months to get results.
If I had to take a guess, I'd put your deer in the middle age class...maybe 5.5, But I agree with the other comments that the photo angle is not the best.
One of the most important things to remember about aging by the teeth, is that the textbook sets a minimum age. The deer can always be older with light wear on the teeth. But once the markers for each textbook age are present, it would be highly unusual for the deer to be younger than that age.
Also, I think as important if not more important than diet, are the genetics of the individual deer. Just like some people have a lot more problems with their teeth, some deer will have strong teeth and others not.
My biggest question is when you have a jawbone like the one I posted the other day, that looks pristine and fresh even for a 2 year old, the last molar not even fully erupted....but the body says 4 years old....how the heck do your reconcile that?
Also, I think as important if not more important than diet, are the genetics of the individual deer. Just like some people have a lot more problems with their teeth, some deer will have strong teeth and others not.
My biggest question is when you have a jawbone like the one I posted the other day, that looks pristine and fresh even for a 2 year old, the last molar not even fully erupted....but the body says 4 years old....how the heck do your reconcile that?
Catscratch
5 year old buck +
So this isn't an exact science by any means. I'm learning a lot though. All of it makes since on HOW to measure tooth wear... and also that diet and genetics plays a role in HOW QUICKLY those teeth wear. I can see why people who do this generalize them into groups.
Would a pic of him on the hoof make a difference? Do you want to see if any of your answers would change?
Would a pic of him on the hoof make a difference? Do you want to see if any of your answers would change?
Tap
5 year old buck +
I always want to see pics and hear opinions. I never want to stop learning. But photos can be deceiving, too. It's amazing how different a buck's age can appear in different photos. Time of the year, attitude (dominant posturing), body positioning and photo angle can make the same deer look a variety of ages.
Do you have any plans to send the incisors to the lab for aging?
Catscratch
5 year old buck +
Here's a pic of him last week. I'll post some more pics later... I don't have plans of sending the teeth in.
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bueller
Moderator
Although not an exact science, jawbone aging can be useful and fairly accurate. Yes diet, etc... has it's effects and arguing 3.5 vs 4.5 or 4.5 vs 5.5 or 5.5 vs 6.5 is pointless for the most part. However regardless of diet, it's pretty darn easy to determine if a deer is .5, 1.5, and to a certain extent 2.5. It gets a tricky after that. But still it's easy and safe to say that when estimating a deer to be 5.5 by jawbone that the deer is not 2.5. Could be 4.5 or could be 6.5 or even older, but not 2.5.
yoderjac
5 year old buck +
Absolutely. We use jawbones to estimate the age of every deer we harvest. The aging is actually done by a biologist that ages all the participating folks in our county. Our goal is to protect bucks under 3.5 years. We make a lot of mistakes and end up shooting deer that age at 2.5 when our estimate on the hoof was 3.5. We are now trying to develop an album consisting of trail cam pics and post harvest pics and correlating them with jawbone age estimates for deer on our farm. The hope is for us to become better on-hoof estimaters.
Thanks,
Jack
Jack, I would be very reluctant to overrule an estimate on the hoof using a jawbone. many deer appear to have teeth much younger than their actual age.
http://habitat-talk.com/index.php?threads/age-this-buck.6506/#post-124180
yoderjac
5 year old buck +
Jawbone age estimates can certainly be off by year. The estimates are being done by an experienced biologist. Our hunters have a very wide range of experience. Also, keep in mind that the biologists have weight and antler measurements as well for each deer. While it is not the most accurate method, it is cost effective compared to the alternatives.
