Starting a new plot

[RGrizzzz]

Curious for the hive mind feedback. We acquired the neighbors property in the winter. There is about 5 acres of open field on the hillside. We soiled tested and the pH is low, which is also confirmed by looking at what little is growing there. What are your thoughts on kick starting this plot? Should we open it up and plant something, or wait until we can get it limed? Partially or totally?

We can get our tractor to it across the creek, but getting lime there is more of a challenge. Local suppliers won't cross the creek, even though it might only be 12" deep. We don't have a bridge yet. Timeline is "hopefully this summer" but we're shooting for something to drive UTVs across, not 20 tons of lime. We can dump the lime across the creek, load with the tractor, spread with the UTV(s) and repeat. We currently only have a 500 lb capacity Groundbuster. Renting a second might be a wise move for a weekend to speed things up. As you can see, it needs a lot of lime. Should we bother putting in some buckwheat this summer, or leave it until we can get the lime down and mixed in?


View attachment 63758

 

[omicron1792]

I’ve used liquid lime to jump start a plot with good success. Then can add pellet lime as you can. Use a good ag product like advancedCal

 

[RGrizzzz]

I’ve used liquid lime to jump start a plot with good success. Then can add pellet lime as you can. Use a good ag product like advancedCal

It'll be Ag lime, not pelletized, at 5 tons/acre.

 

[omicron1792]

5 tons/acre seems a bit much. Is that what soil study recommended? Rule of thumb is one ton/point of ph needed to raise.

Edit. I see where it recommends that. Seems like a lot.

My idea was temporizing measure not permanent solution. But you can grow lots of things with ph you have with a little help.

 

[omicron1792]

I almost think they mean 5 tons for whole 4 acres. I might consider asking them before I put 20 tons on 4 acres.

 

[RGrizzzz]

No, it's 10,000/lb per acre. I've soil tested a bunch with Penn State and was a little shocked when this came back. It's along a creek, so it might be a bit sandy in places, which usually wants more lime.

 

[omicron1792]

Yeah. That’s a crap ton of lime. If me, I wouldn’t put that much.

I had trouble finding anyone to spread it. So I rented the buggy and put out 30 tons at about 4 tons at a time.

 

[bigboreblr]

Imsure they know what they're doing. But, no CEC numbers or the .01M CaCo2 lime test? I'd retake some 0-2 or 0-3 inch depth samples and have a .01M test done. They basically take some disolved lime and see how much it changes. It's possible that's what they did already.

What kind of soil did you thin kit was, clay, loam. Stuff near creeks can be surprising.

I'd just do rye n clover. Forgot what you had for foodplot work. throw rye, light disc or harrow, then throw clover n drag, roll, or cultipack.

What do you have to get lime over there? What do you have to spread. Might be worthwhile doing a corner with pelletized lime, like a 1/4 acre test of 2 tons/acre. See how things respond. See what shows up. That corner I'd do something like wheat or oats n clover. Maybe a handful of turnip seeds.

What do you think you need to do for weed control? A light gly spray would be cheap insurance.

 

[RGrizzzz]

Im sure they know what they're doing. But, no CEC numbers or the .01M CaCo2 lime test? I'd retake some 0-2 or 0-3 inch depth samples and have a .01M test done. They basically take some disolved lime and see how much it changes. It's possible that's what they did already.

What kind of soil did you thin kit was, clay, loam. Stuff near creeks can be surprising.

I'd just do rye n clover. Forgot what you had for foodplot work. throw rye, light disc or harrow, then throw clover n drag, roll, or cultipack.

What do you have to get lime over there? What do you have to spread. Might be worthwhile doing a corner with pelletized lime, like a 1/4 acre test of 2 tons/acre. See how things respond. See what shows up. That corner I'd do something like wheat or oats n clover. Maybe a handful of turnip seeds.

What do you think you need to do for weed control? A light gly spray would be cheap insurance.

Here is the rest of the soil test info. Didn't realize it wasn't in the screen shot I shared.

Getting lime over there isn't ideal. We can take bagged lime through the creek in the UTVs or Rangers. We have a 500 lb capacity Groundbuster drop spreader so it can be spread, but slowly. We could get bulk lime delivered across the creek and spread, once a bridge is in place using the stuff we have, and maybe a second rented lime spreader. But that's contingent on getting the bridge. A ton of pelletized lime is about $250. It's about $1000 for a load of bulk lime(22 tons) delivered, plus whatever it might cost to rent another spreader. We need about 20 tons, so bagged lime isn't ideal.

 

[matinc]

Why is there not an OM percentage. His ph is 4.9. It must be all ferns and huckleberry bushes to be that low. If it is sandy as omi says then his one ton to an acre sounds correct. Unless it's all clay then the recommendations could be correct

 

[RGrizzzz]

I didn't pay for the OM analysis. I tested a few other plots and it was practically zero.

There is not much growing there. Not even any ferns. Just low brushy stuff and some kind of taller grass that grows in sporadic clumps. Most of the ground in the area is full of shale. Digging so far hasn't turned up a ton of rocks, but that's relative. I don't doubt the lime recommendation.

 

[matinc]

Have you watched any of Grant Woods videos on growing deer tv. I am curious if you have a roller crimper. You might need a buckwheat summer n rye fall mix as jeff sturgis preaches. Or a summer release like grant woods preaches. My OM is .9 so I understand sandy soil. It's not fun. I am actually going to try each of the applications above and see what does better this year.

 

[SD51555]

Before you start down the path of figuring out how to get 50,000 pounds of lime across the creek, please invest $35 in a complete soil test. Send one off to Midwest Labs and get an S3C analysis. You need to know buffer pH and a whole bunch of other stuff before you can pick a rate and type of lime. It'd odd your lime rec is that high and they're recommending magnesium be added. It should take 1 ton/ac to move sandy soil from 4.9 to 6.5. I'd also lower your goal to 6.0 pH, and even live with 5.5 to get started if that's all you can move.

Far as the creek goes, I don't know what you're dealing with as far as width and rate of flow. My instincts would be to build a temporary bridge with logs and culverts and use a compact track loader to get lime across it. If it's flat enough, I might even dig a diversion and just fill it with logs and move the water around the original creek bed. No matter what, I'd build it, use it, and put it back to what it was before the water cops catch up to you.

And timing? I would spend the entire growing season just getting it limed. Don't break soil or spray until you're ready for a fall plot. Way easier to get weeds under control and get good crops established in the fall. Lime whatever is there for the summer and give the lime some time to get washed in. If you do end up needing that much lime, you'll probably want to split apply that over two years. The Ag Phd guys recommend limiting lime to three tons/ac per year. I'm not sure why, but I'd guess so you don't create a high pH layer.

Then, build a blend of low pH tolerant seeds: Rye, oats, brassicas, white clover, red clover, throw in some native perennial wildflowers, ragweed, plantain, and don't forget the chicory.

 

[omicron1792]

Before you start down the path of figuring out how to get 50,000 pounds of lime across the creek, please invest $35 in a complete soil test. Send one off to Midwest Labs and get an S3C analysis. You need to know buffer pH and a whole bunch of other stuff before you can pick a rate and type of lime. It'd odd your lime rec is that high and they're recommending magnesium be added. It should take 1 ton/ac to move sandy soil from 4.9 to 6.5. I'd also lower your goal to 6.0 pH, and even live with 5.5 to get started if that's all you can move.

Far as the creek goes, I don't know what you're dealing with as far as width and rate of flow. My instincts would be to build a temporary bridge with logs and culverts and use a compact track loader to get lime across it. If it's flat enough, I might even dig a diversion and just fill it with logs and move the water around the original creek bed. No matter what, I'd build it, use it, and put it back to what it was before the water cops catch up to you.

And timing? I would spend the entire growing season just getting it limed. Don't break soil or spray until you're ready for a fall plot. Way easier to get weeds under control and get good crops established in the fall. Lime whatever is there for the summer and give the lime some time to get washed in. If you do end up needing that much lime, you'll probably want to split apply that over two years. The Ag Phd guys recommend limiting lime to three tons/ac per year. I'm not sure why, but I'd guess so you don't create a high pH layer.

Then, build a blend of low pH tolerant seeds: Rye, oats, brassicas, white clover, red clover, throw in some native perennial wildflowers, ragweed, plantain, and don't forget the chicory.

Read this Grizz. He is 100 percent right.

That lime figure is way too high. Most food plotters shoot for 6 or 6.5ph, not 7.

Most put lime out in increments. You’re gonna get runoff and will lose some of the lime you add each time, even with discing it in.

If it was me, I would spray some advanced cal, throw as much pellet lime as you can, get some stuff growing and repair the soil, and retest the soil in a year.

 

[omicron1792]

@FarmerDan, would love you to weigh in on this. @SD51555 and farmerdan are my go too guys on soil ph.

Read the throw and mow thread too. Liming it and letting it grow up like a jungle would repair the soil as much as anything before a fall plot. Maybe lightly disc in the lime, which will cause a flush of growth of forbs(weeds) which will help prevent washing and heal the soil quickly.

 

[RGrizzzz]

The recommendation is based on the acidity value, which is measured by the Mehlich buffer pH. (See the footnote 3 in the second screenshot)

Lime Recommendations (Agricultural Analytical Services Lab)

Limestone recommendations are made based on the pH goal and the amount of exchangeable acidity measured by the Mehlich Buffer soil test.

agsci.psu.edu

 

[RGrizzzz]

Far as the creek goes, I don't know what you're dealing with as far as width and rate of flow. My instincts would be to build a temporary bridge with logs and culverts and use a compact track loader to get lime across it. If it's flat enough, I might even dig a diversion and just fill it with logs and move the water around the original creek bed. No matter what, I'd build it, use it, and put it back to what it was before the water cops catch up to you.

And timing? I would spend the entire growing season just getting it limed. Don't break soil or spray until you're ready for a fall plot. Way easier to get weeds under control and get good crops established in the fall. Lime whatever is there for the summer and give the lime some time to get washed in. If you do end up needing that much lime, you'll probably want to split apply that over two years. The Ag Phd guys recommend limiting lime to three tons/ac per year. I'm not sure why, but I'd guess so you don't create a high pH layer.

Then, build a blend of low pH tolerant seeds: Rye, oats, brassicas, white clover, red clover, throw in some native perennial wildflowers, ragweed, plantain, and don't forget the chicory.

We can get across the creek as it is now, as long as it hasn't rained significantly within a few days. It will be easier with a bridge for the rangers, so we can tow the spreaders back and forth across, instead of having to haul across the creek in the tractor bucket and load on the other side of the creek. (Creek crossing is the blue dot. It's maybe 100 yards to go past the old house to the field spread the lime)

I'm asking this, because my dad and I are having a debate about how to approach this. I'm on your side @SD51555. I want to get the pH above 6 FIRST, and then worry about planting. He's itching to break ground, which I think is a waste of time and money (on seed and pelletized lime).

 

[RGrizzzz]

Full soil test result

 

[RGrizzzz]

What kind of soil did you thin kit was, clay, loam. Stuff near creeks can be surprising.

I looked at the USDA soil maps, and it's a mix of these two. That seems accurate after doing some digging to plant a few apple trees. (limed/improved soil in holes)

LaB—Lackawanna channery silt loam, 3 to 8 percent slopes
Description of Lackawanna
Parent material: Loamy till derived mainly from reddish sandstone, siltstone, and shale

Ho—Holly silt loam
Description of Holly
Parent material: Loamy alluvium derived from sandstone and shale

 

[omicron1792]

Some have had good success with buckwheat. My results have been average at best.