Sample Plan

Instead of mowing I go in the a hand sprayer and hit a 16" path or sidewalk with round-up in mid-late may. I hate mowing as you usually have to do it more than once. At least where I am anyways. Marsh grasses kick butt here in the summer over 6ft tall. I spray it and forget about it.
 
Can you describe the characteristics of a doe bedding area? What are you finding/creating to faciliate an area that will hold does?

Great thread Steve.
 
I first heard of deer trails in a series of books my dr. Ken Nordberg. His hunting was done in central and northern Mn.

He favored trail that were 3 feet wide and 6 foot high. Just wide enough for a decent buck to walk, but too narrow for a four wheeler. He also had the concept of stand access tails at right angles to the deer trails. Hre is e a of trail that I created spring, 2013 A handful of us snowshoed this trail during the March NHMG day. Freeborn was with me..IMG_8035 3 2.jpg
 
I added a small rye patch on this trail based on advice of wildfire and foggy when they visited my place in 2012. Plans are to add another rye patch along the trail.
IMG_8338 2.jpg
 
Sorry to steal your threda, Steve. I envy places that have the kinds of deer numbers you describe. Well, maybe not envy. I guess I am just used to working harder for the deer that we have.

I would consider three or four doe family groups on my 170 acres to be about maximum-maybe too many. About 90 of those acres are cover.

Hers is the high tech equipment I use to maintain the deer trails-and also roundup.IMG_8146 2.jpg
 
And this through
IMG_8148 2.jpg
the reed canary.
 
Steve-I see many of you stands are near the foodplots. do you anticipate seeing decent bucks on those foodplots?

With our hunting pressure, I favor hunting the trails between the foodplots or the junctions of trails like some of your stands. Plus hunters can more often enter and leave stands without worrying about deer being in view on a foodplot.

I also struggle with this screening of stands. It is easy on my better soils, but tough to do on the light soils.
 
Do you do anything to enhance these side walks such as planting conifers along side of it. I am making a corridor between a food plot and bedding area...I am worried there are too many downed trees for the deer to use it...could there be more than one trail through it and should there be"escape" routes so the deer don't feel trapped?

Buckly pretty much nailed what I do and why. As he wrote, dropping most of the trees perpendicular to the "sidewalk" allows easy on off for the trail. He also makes a great point about using a little ingenuity. Always remember, our brains, their powers to analyze situations and be creative are our best tools/weapons, whether we're talking improvements or hunting.

He isn't exaggerating about the 2 miles of trails I suggested he put in. If you include access trails, he's probably over that. That sounds intimidating as heck to some, but 2 things help a bunch: you can get a lot more done in a day with a chainsaw than you think, particularly if you are using a small one (most make the mistake of going big...go as small as you can to get the job done) and you don't have to get it all done in 1 day. Look at it as pieces. Start with what you feel is the most important piece. do that and then move to the next most important piece. Get done what you get done, but it's NOT a race.

I do use spruce in some situations to help create travel corridors. I mainly use them when I want a corridor across more open areas, where simply dropping trees won't be enough, as there aren't enough or there are no real trees. When planting them for travel corridors, I space them around 10', as I don't mind the risk of losing some interior, lower branches. For bedding, I space them 12'. In both cases, I stagger rows.
 
Can you describe the characteristics of a doe bedding area? What are you finding/creating to faciliate an area that will hold does?

Great thread Steve.

When you have high deer numbers, making doe bedding areas is easy, as they are competing for space and are generally already using up all the other decent locations and are forced to use marginal at best spots. Toss some cover out there and they'll flock to it, in those situations. You have to be more selective when dealing with low deer numbers.

Some general guidelines for creating doe bedding in areas of low deer numbers:
Close to food is good. Does want to be near food, all else being equal. Just don't make it so close that you can't hunt the food.
Real steep slopes are bad. I suppose one could literally dig out flat spots to bed, but that'd be a lot of work.
When dealing with terrain, ridge tops and points are generally the best, but in areas of high deer numbers, bottoms work too.
In swamp lands, islands and the edges of swamps work well.
In brush or evergreen stands, one can create smaller openings to often get does to bed in specific locations. I've found 10 yards in diameter works well. I often create those same openings in hinge cut bedding, if the trees are too thick to have natural openings.
 
Steve-I see many of you stands are near the foodplots. do you anticipate seeing decent bucks on those foodplots?

With our hunting pressure, I favor hunting the trails between the foodplots or the junctions of trails like some of your stands. Plus hunters can more often enter and leave stands without worrying about deer being in view on a foodplot.

I also struggle with this screening of stands. It is easy on my better soils, but tough to do on the light soils.

Yes, because the food plots are small, surrounded on all sides with cover AND pressure on that ground would be so low impact, I would anticipate seeing mature bucks on them. Heck, the previous owner of the property I'm working on in C MN shot a 170ish buck off a food plot there this past season, somewhere around mid Oct (I don't remember the exact date).

That said, I believe there are keys to being able to kill mature bucks on food plots:
Pressure MUST be kept low. I don't mean the place can't be hunted. I mean that the deer shouldn't know they are being hunted. That has as much to do with how the property is setup as it does how it's hunted.

It sure helps when one is dealing with smaller plots (1/4-1 acre) surrounded by cover and close to where they bed. It's always easier to get a buck to hit a food plot during light when he beds 100-200 yards away than when he beds 400-500 yards away. Just an extra 200-300 yards can make a big difference.

It also helps when you have a decent number of does hitting that food plot early. If they feel safe enough to do that consistently, bucks have a higher tendency to do so, as well.

Finally, So long as they feel safe, you're training bucks that hitting the plots during daylight is OK, and daylight sightings of mature bucks should increase over the first 1-5ish years. After dispersal, that 1.5 coming out early without harm helps him feel safe and not see the threat of doing so. So, he tends to do the same at 2.5 and 3.5 and 4.5, as he's done it since he was 1.5, without feeling threatened. Over time, you train him that doing so is perfectly safe.

That last part is a key. No doubt, that's easier on a 320 than a 40 acre piece of ground, but my experience indicates that it is still more possible on that 40 than most realize. I believe most deer (exceptions to everything) have areas they feel safe moving in during daylight, even in high pressure areas. Most often. they are areas that for whatever reason (pain to get there or simply overlooked) humans don't bug them in. Few bucks are purely nocturnal. Instead, I believe they are trained that this area is safe during daylight, but those aren't. I'm going to strive hard to train them that these plots are safe, as well as most of the rest of my property. I believe the results of that are better than most would believe.

I try to use that to my advantage in other ways. If I have a neighbor I work with well, I do my best to keep that going. If we don't work well together, I try to access stands along property lines, with my wind blowing right into his property. I don't mind spooking those deer at all, even those they commonly cross back and forth between our properties. Spooking them when they are on the other side of the line tells them they are not safe there, but that doesn't happen to you over "here." "Here," you are safe as if you are snuggled in your mother's arms. You can make the case that's a jerk move, and maybe it is, but I've found it to be rather effective, particularly when that same neighbor doesn't place a high priority on low impact, themselves.

Everyone seems to love complaining about their sloppy hunting neighbors. I'd almost always rather have them than serious, good hunters as neighbors. Sloppy neighbors tend to help me reach my goals better than those that share my same goals and are good at what they do. That said, I can see how they'd drive me nuts in very low deer number areas.

P.S. In many situations, I put far more stands off the plots than on them. The way that farm lays out, setting up between bed and feed doesn't fit well/isn't low impact. Also, notice that more than one of those food plot stands are also covering in-woods movement. That isn't an accident. I try to setup a property to create stands that cover both food and what is essentially deep woods movement when practically possible. Almost always better to kill 2 birds with 1 stone...Just did a quick count. 8 of 11 food plot stands also cover pure in-woods deer movement. I suspect the drawing doesn't show that very well, but they are covering both the food plot and the "sidewalk" in the woods.
 
Last edited:
If we don't work well together, I try to access stands along property lines, with my wind blowing right into his property. I don't mind spooking those deer at all, even those they commonly cross back and forth between our properties. Spooking them when they are on the other side of the line tells them they are not safe there, but that doesn't happen to you over "here." "Here," you are safe as if you are snuggled in your mother's arms. You can make the case that's a jerk move, and maybe it is, but I've found it to be rather effective, particularly when that same neighbor doesn't place a high priority on low impact, themselves.

This is the exact thing we would do at our place Steve. Prevailing westerly winds at our old place and always accessed from the east property line with the jerk neighbors. It's not my fault if any of his deer winded me walking in. It may have been in his(groups) best interest to not drive their 4-wheelers all over the trails that covered his property from line to line at all hours of the day and night, even during the deer season. He was one of those guys that figured if you drive them all the time, everywhere, the deer will ignore them.:rolleyes:
 
Whip,

It often amazes me how much of a difference doing seemingly "little things" like that adds up to. there's such a fine line between tagging Mr. Big and not doing so. I can point to so many kills that I believe small details made the difference on...Not the least bit surprised you put that together. I suspect you do/did a lot more of that type of stuff, and I'd likely have a few head slapping moments for not having thought of it myself.
 
Everyone seems to love complaining about their sloppy hunting neighbors. I'd almost always rather have them than serious, good hunters as neighbors. Sloppy neighbors tend to help me reach my goals better than those that share my same goals and are good at what they do. That said, I can see how they'd drive me nuts in very low deer number areas.
I couldn't agree more with this statement. Much like when hunting public lands where 9 out of 10 hunters are "sloppy". That's good for us 1%ers. Imagine trying to hunt with very high hunter densities where EVERYONE knew what the heck they were doing :confused:.
 
So in some respects we should be thankful for the "Elmer Fudd's" of the world.:D
 
Obviously agree with both of you. The key is making them work for you, not against. In management, that means letting them trash their woods, while you offer a seemingly safe alternative. When you take full advantage of that, your sightings keep going up as season progresses, while theirs tapper off to next to nothing.

Hunting public lands, you find the pockets they aren't and let them push all the deer to you.

They're actually great allies, provided you use them to your advantage.
 
MNFish,

Creating segregation of family groups is as important for them as it is for bucks. There are personality types in does as much as in bucks, but I have a hard time believing many enjoy being bullied by the more dominant family group. All else being equal, if a family group must be subordinate on your ground, but can live a social stress free life on the other side of the fence, they'll likely go to the other side of the fence. Now, you can discourage that by offering better food, water, cover and less pressure than the neighbors, but even that will only go so far.

To produce and hold the max number of does, divide your property up and offer food, water and bedding in each section. It's impossible to say how many section you should create on your 60, as I know nothing about it and how it lays will have a determining impact. That said, I couldn't see doing more than 4, max on a 60, and 2-3 is more likely, depending on how it lays.

That said, when doing any of this, always remember that you want to effectively hunt it, as well. Make these changes in a way that enhances that, not hurt hunting. That may sound silly, but it's real easy to improve a property for deer, while making it harder to hunt. Just ask how any of these changes will impact hunt before making them and do your best to make them in a way to promote low impact/high reward stand site. That alone will get you further than most that slap out food plots (not talking guys here. but the general hunting public).
 
One more follow up question for you Steve and then I promise I will quit derailing your thread...Not exactly sure how to ask the question so bare with me. When you or others speak of a "a doe group", is that made up of all females from multiple generations started by one doe. Or is it a doe that has fawns is considered a doe group. Could a doe group be made up from multiple generations? Sorry for my ignorance and thanks for the help!
I usually see it as a mature doe with her doe fawn from last year (this years yearling doe), and this years fawns from both of them. Others may have a different take on it.
 
One more follow up question for you Steve and then I promise I will quit derailing your thread...Not exactly sure how to ask the question so bare with me. When you or others speak of a "a doe group", is that made up of all females from multiple generations started by one doe. Or is it a doe that has fawns is considered a doe group. Could a doe group be made up from multiple generations? Sorry for my ignorance and thanks for the help!

All of the above. Some of the variance is due to hunting (does being killed from the family group), but there has to be other factors (personality, maybe? A doe that wants to be alpha, but her mom, grandmother or great grandmother is in her group, so she breaks off?). I'll be honest, I don't know of why besides hunting, natural mortality and most likely personality, doe groups don't all look the same in structure.

Some are nothing but a single doe (with fawns, if she successfully reared them). I've seen a lot like Bueller describes (probably more than any other configuration), but I've also had a lot of groups that were made up of 12-20 does and their fawns, and consistently see the same number when they pile in or out of a location together, indicating it's likely not a one or two time thing. They truly live together as a unit.

What I find interesting in the larger family groups is how easy it is to ID how the Alpha is. Who is 2nd in command, 3rd and even 4th, at times. There is a distinct pecking order within family groups (which is why I suspect personality plays a role in if an adult doe stays in the family group or breaks off to create her own) and between separate family groups. The dominance structure in the doe world is every bit as real as for bucks, and it is at least as elaborate.

Where it is really important is in fawning. the Alpha and others close to the top of the most dominate doe group on a property almost always claim the best/safest locations for fawning. When you have a lot of does on a property, the ones towards the bottom of the hierarchy really have some slim pickings for fawning areas, often forced to take whatever is left over. I believe, in areas of high doe numbers, that's why you tend to see more single does without fawns, even in areas of mild winters and ample nutrition. Their fawns are easy prey for predators, as there just wasn't any good cover left for them. the strong family groups get stronger and the weak get weaker.

Which brings up an important point, if maximizing doe production is important, don't ignore a property's amount and quality of fawning grounds.
You need fairly decent size areas of nasty thick cover to maximize fawn survival rates. By decent sized, I mean an acre or more, though, for fawn production, 5 acre pieces are better, with 10 being better still and 20 still better and so on. Again, it's a balance between providing the best hunting and the best habitat for deer.

In areas with an abundance of naturally good cover, you really don't have to worry about it. If not, one can create extra hinge cut bedding areas (I slapped in an extra on that longer ridge. As noted, part of the draw was for does having another place to hide from chasing bucks. Another was for more fawning cover). Sure, it's nice when they are bigger, but even a 1/2 acre is better than hiding on a mature ridge top, laying next to a large tree with nothing else for cover.

Another method is planting spruce or warm season native grasses. I almost see those two plantings as interchangeable in most ways, with the spruce offering thermal cover and the native grasses tending to offer a bit more weedy growth for feeding.

You aren't derailing this thread at all. This all plays into catering plans to your goals.
 
Your highlighted bold text would have been my answer as well Steve. If you want to hold more does, create better fawning habitat.
 
We are now at the point where a family group is just a doe and her current year's fawns-where I live.

Se just do not have many does left.
 
Top