Question for the experts

[chbarnha]

I have a question for those of you that have been doing this a lot longer than I have. In the picture with this post you will see the what is left of my rye and brassicas plot from the fall. I am planning on planting green covers summer release in this plot for weed control and soil health. What I’m not sure of, would you guys broadcast straight into the rye and brassicas, or would you disc the fall plot under and then plant. I’m a few weeks out from the soil temps being right but just trying to get my ducks in a row. Thanks for any advice.

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[Honker]

I'm not an expert, but I think you have two options here given I don't know what tools you have at your disposal:

1. Wait until the recommended soil temperatures are achieved for your planting mix. Either over seed the seed into the existing leftover rye and flatten the rye over the top of the seed and spray it with glyphosate terminating the rye. Or, spray the rye with gly, over seed and flatten the rye over the top of your seed.

2. Work up the soil with a disc or tiller and and plant the seed and do a light discing depending on seeding requirements and pack the soil with a cultipacker ect.

I personally would try option 1, because I do not like to work up my soil anymore and the whole point of the summer release is to build your soil.

 

[Foggy47]

In time gone by....I would till or disk last years food plots to incorporate the "trash" and start anew with seeding corn , beans or clover into the bare soils. This always promoted a new flush of weeds and later some more stubborn weeds like water hemp became prevalent for me. Weed control became a major issue for me.

In mid summer last year (after a major period of drought) I decided my past practices were taking too much time and inputs for the sporatic results I was getting. I made a decision to go no till and change more to regenerative ag. This required for me a decent no till grain drill.....as I cannot get things to grow by broadcasting into standing crops and packing the seeds. Never has worked for me despite my efforts.....as my sandy soil may germinate some new seeds.....but if rain does not come quickly....the new crops are toast.

Major commitment for me is a decent drill to allow the mulch to provide soil armor and preserve soil moisture and much more....like the root mass below the surface. I am committed to make the no till work on my land. Going to try to keep things growing at all times. No more row crops or monoculture crops either. Always keep a blend of seeds going.

Not sure about your soils. Are you able to broadcast, pack and grow stuff? That is the first question to me....as soils vary so much.

 

[yoderjac]

I'm an advocate of no-till techniques because tillage introduces O2 into the soil speeding the burn of OM as well as disturbing the natural soil tilth. It reduces natural nutrient cycling and requires more inputs.

Having said that, I would first take a hard looks at your premise and ask a few questions:

- Why are you planting for summer? Are you doing QDM and trying to cover a summer stress period? Do you have enough scale to make a difference?
- Where are you located? Depending on what zone you are in, summer may be a time of plenty for deer.
- unless you are in zone 7 or further higher, you may not want to plant at all.
- If you you don't have close to 1,000 acres that you own or can influence, you probably don't have the scale for QDM. In this case, you may want to focus more on soil health than deer.

Unless your brassicas have not been eaten and are getting ready to bolt, you probably don't need to terminate them. In that case, simply letting the WR mature will cover your soil with no tillage needed. Turley will use the seed heads and they will get some use from deer. This gives you a lot of flexibility for timing your fall plant.

If you are not doing QDM, and are trying to improve soil health for your fall plant, you might want to select more appropriate seed. The mix you list has some large seeds in it that won't germinate well with surface broadcasting and cultipacking. That mix would be fine with a calibrated no-tll drill, but otherwise, you will need to disc to get good germination which works against the soil health objective. Instead, consider selecting crops that germinate well with T&M and cultipacking so no tillage is needed. Buckwheat is often called green manure because it scavenges nutrients from the soil and breaks down quickly to release them for your fall plant. Your choice of crop will also be driven by your location.

If you do go with a crop that you can T&M like buckwheat, you can either let the WR mature enough to crimp or mow it and spray with 2 qt/ac of gly and broadcast and cultipack your seed.

In the end, what to do and how to do it, is driven by your objectives.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[Bassattackr]

"..for weed control and soil health"

IF 1) Those are your predominant goals, 2) You wanted to go the Green Cover route and 3) The tools at your disposal are a broadcast spreader and a disc (as you mention above):

I would instead broadcast the Early Start Release (or some sort of frost seeded clover mix of your choice) ASAP given you have enough bare soil and let it grow up with the rye. As the rye matures and grows there is probably not a better source of weed suppression, the new clover stand will provide great N input for a fall planting and you'll have some great food and habitat to boot thru the summer.

Discing rye in the spring works about as well as discing fescue in the spring.. Both are cool season plants and you've just stimulated them at the right time..

By the time the soil temperature would be warm enough to broadcast the Summer Release, the rye will be 4 feet tall and it will not compete well with the lack of sunlight and still green rye robbing soil moisture. That's why you see many (like Dr. Woods) plant into it with a no til drill and crimping in the process.

BTW - You've just touched on why so many farmers have trouble planting warm season crops into green rye. Soil doesn't warm near as quick (decreasing growing days), seed can rot in soggy environment as soil stays shaded under standing rye for longer, etc..

If you still want to go the summer release route, a throw and mow might be the best bet albiet many things (like the beans) in the summer release won't take well.. OR wait until the rye reaches the dough stage and mow, fertilize and then disc in that order to start from scratch and get better seed to soil contact. Either way weeds will be problem.

..Just my $.02.

 

[bigboreblr]

Rye chokes out weeds and it's growing ok. Perhap throw some more in, then kill it for your fall plot.

Let the stuff grow a few weeks. Spray it dead, broadcast the seed, mow it down, then cultipack over it. Works for some plantings, not all. You could throw oats in there as an option too. My plots have been small over the years, so If i leave them I spot treat the bald spot. Scratch the soil with a rake, drop the seed, then take good dirt and cover it up a 1/2 inch or so.

Sun hemp is an option too. Seeds need to be warm enough to germinate, if its too early, theyll get choked out.

IF you need phosphate, pottasium, or lime/sulphur to get things correct a good bit, then thats when I turn the soil. Do you need to remove rocks?

Tell us what you have to work with and what you want to plant for the fall. I plant to attract deer to camera locations. You dont always have to plant the enitre plot to do that in the summer.

Critters can be fussy from spot to the next on preference of forage when it comes to brassicas.

Your spots around the young trees look bare, are you working that area in conjunction with the plot area?

My opinion, let the rye go, but throw some clover in it now. From the looks to me, that plot is still on the young side. Keep with grain mixes for the fall. Clover and grains can get hammered hard and still be around. Deer can be fussy about certain brassicas. Mine wont touch canola. Daikon and turnips seem to work. I usually go for a grain, root crop, clover mix. Then let it stay what it is until august in NY.

Too soon to tell what the weed situation is like in your plot pics. But, adding 2,4D amine to your gly can help with certain stubborn broadleafs. IF you do disc, kill with herbicide, then either leave it along for 2 or 3 weeks. Disc it up, then disc it again in another week after a good rain. To let the weeds seeds germinate, then disturbing those young roots with the disc to kill them.

In my experience, turning over whats there now and adding fertilizer is pouring gas on the weed "fire". The rye looks good, keep it going........

 

[chbarnha]

Well to answer some of the questions as best I can.
1. I’m mainly trying to improve the soil. My OM is low and this ground is heavy clay. I’m in central va.
2. This plot was created last year with a forestry mulcher, I still have some mulch in the plot which is slowly deteriorating.
3. I was planning on going with the fall release in the fall broadcasted into the summer release.
4. The areas of the plot where the fruit trees are planted has been frost seeded with clover and chicory and is just starting to pop. I actually was there earlier and put down 8 more lbs of clover in the spots where it was already frost seeded. We have a significant rain event coming Thursday.

Like I said I’m new to all this as I have always hunted oaks and ag. Trying to learn and make this 34 acres as good as I can. I know I can’t hold or grow deer but being on the outskirts of town, I always have plenty of does and there are two family groups that stay most of the time. I get several good bucks on camera in here every year, now just trying to make them daylight a little. Thanks for all the help. This year may be a failure as I already have the summer release and browse release.


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[Bassattackr]

Then given what you have at this point, I'd wait until you get the right soil temperature and the rye is in the right stage. Then broadcast the seed, and find something to flatten the rye and press the seed into the soil as best you can. If you don't have a cultipacker or a roller, drag a cedar tree if you have to.

I would fertilize at time of seed broadcast (per soil test) and time everything right before a summer rain. All these things added up properly could still give you a great stand come fall. Timely rains are always key..

Good luck!

 

[yoderjac]

Well to answer some of the questions as best I can.
1. I’m mainly trying to improve the soil. My OM is low and this ground is heavy clay. I’m in central va.
2. This plot was created last year with a forestry mulcher, I still have some mulch in the plot which is slowly deteriorating.
3. I was planning on going with the fall release in the fall broadcasted into the summer release.
4. The areas of the plot where the fruit trees are planted has been frost seeded with clover and chicory and is just starting to pop. I actually was there earlier and put down 8 more lbs of clover in the spots where it was already frost seeded. We have a significant rain event coming Thursday.

Like I said I’m new to all this as I have always hunted oaks and ag. Trying to learn and make this 34 acres as good as I can. I know I can’t hold or grow deer but being on the outskirts of town, I always have plenty of does and there are two family groups that stay most of the time. I get several good bucks on camera in here every year, now just trying to make them daylight a little. Thanks for all the help. This year may be a failure as I already have the summer release and browse release.


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I'm in central VA as well with heavy clay soil. I too have a focus on soil health. The only difference between our situations is that I'm undersized but attempting to do QDM. We own close to 400 acres but have some influence over an adjoining 400 acres or so, so we are close. The other difference is your plot is new. The forestry mower to create it was a great idea for preserving soil health. The first order of business is lime. I'm guessing your ph was in the 4.5 - 5.5 range before amendments.

I'm on a pine farm, so many of my plots are from reclaimed logging decks that had topsoil removed. It takes time but they have ended up being great plots.

Lime moves through clay slowly. I'd send soil samples to VT for analysis, but I'm guessing they will call for somewhere between 3 and 4 tons. If you haven't don't that yet, do it as soon as you can. Ag lime is hard to find right now, but the coop manager tells me it should be more available by summer. For a small plot you may just want to use pelletized lime which you can apply with any broadcast spreader.

I've had great luck with a mix of buckwheat and sunn hemp at 20-25 lbs/ac of each. Sunn Hemp is a legume that will fix a lot of N into the soil. Both like warm soil and can be surface broadcast and cultipacked. I'd wait until late May or early June. Buckwheat is a 60 to 90 day crop from a deer food perspective. It is fast and competes with weeds well. Sunn Hemp does as well. Both are great deer foods for sumemr.

The components of your proposed mix like soybeans ae large and don't surface broadcast well. In late May or early June, broadcast your seed into the standing WR and then mow it cultipack it and spray it with glyphosate (2 qt/ac).

Starting your plot with a forestry mower was a great start at preserving soil health. The decomposing wood will tie up some N. Rather than try to replace it simply choose crops that don't have high N requirements. For fall, I like a mix of WR/Crimson Clover/Purple Top Turnips. I again surface broadcast at 80-100 lbs/ac of WR, about 10 lbs/ac of CC, and 2 lbs/ac of PTT (or a mix of PTT and GHR). Ground Hog Radish is sometimes called organic tillage as the deep roots provide OM deep into the soil. WR is the big fall attractant and is a great soil builder. It also covers the early part of the next spring. The Crimson Clover provides food when the WR goes rank until I'm ready to plant my buckwheat/sunn hemp.

Best of luck!

Jack

 

[yoderjac]

One more thing...

If I had 36 acres my big concern would be huntability, and fall attraction. With that in mind, after a few years of the buckwheat/sunn hemp summer mix, you soil should be in good shape. At that point, I'd probably stop planting in the spring. I would simply let the WR head out and the Crimson Clover provide field cover and some food value in the summer. I'd save my money and labor for the fall plant.

 

[chbarnha]

I'm in central VA as well with heavy clay soil. I too have a focus on soil health. The only difference between our situations is that I'm undersized but attempting to do QDM. We own close to 400 acres but have some influence over an adjoining 400 acres or so, so we are close. The other difference is your plot is new. The forestry mower to create it was a great idea for preserving soil health. The first order of business is lime. I'm guessing your ph was in the 4.5 - 5.5 range before amendments.

I'm on a pine farm, so many of my plots are from reclaimed logging decks that had topsoil removed. It takes time but they have ended up being great plots.

Lime moves through clay slowly. I'd send soil samples to VT for analysis, but I'm guessing they will call for somewhere between 3 and 4 tons. If you haven't don't that yet, do it as soon as you can. Ag lime is hard to find right now, but the coop manager tells me it should be more available by summer. For a small plot you may just want to use pelletized lime which you can apply with any broadcast spreader.

I've had great luck with a mix of buckwheat and sunn hemp at 20-25 lbs/ac of each. Sunn Hemp is a legume that will fix a lot of N into the soil. Both like warm soil and can be surface broadcast and cultipacked. I'd wait until late May or early June. Buckwheat is a 60 to 90 day crop from a deer food perspective. It is fast and competes with weeds well. Sunn Hemp does as well. Both are great deer foods for sumemr.

The components of your proposed mix like soybeans ae large and don't surface broadcast well. In late May or early June, broadcast your seed into the standing WR and then mow it cultipack it and spray it with glyphosate (2 qt/ac).

Starting your plot with a forestry mower was a great start at preserving soil health. The decomposing wood will tie up some N. Rather than try to replace it simply choose crops that don't have high N requirements. For fall, I like a mix of WR/Crimson Clover/Purple Top Turnips. I again surface broadcast at 80-100 lbs/ac of WR, about 10 lbs/ac of CC, and 2 lbs/ac of PTT (or a mix of PTT and GHR). Ground Hog Radish is sometimes called organic tillage as the deep roots provide OM deep into the soil. WR is the big fall attractant and is a great soil builder. It also covers the early part of the next spring. The Crimson Clover provides food when the WR goes rank until I'm ready to plant my buckwheat/sunn hemp.

Best of luck!

Jack

I have already done a soil test, they called for 1.5 tons. My ph was right above 6. I spread the lime a fertilizer required about 3 weeks ago. Which part of central va are you in? I’m in West Point


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[yoderjac]

I have already done a soil test, they called for 1.5 tons. My ph was right above 6. I spread the lime a fertilizer required about 3 weeks ago. Which part of central va are you in? I’m in West Point


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Then you are in great shape! You location to the east explains the pH difference. I'm about 100 mile NW of you, so there will be some differences in our climate and soils, but we are both well east of the mountains. Tidewater vs Piedmont.

 

[bigboreblr]

When soil tests are done, they expect about 6 inches of till to incorporate that 1.5 tons of lime. Lime, potassium, and phosphorus move slowly into the soil. I always use some 6/24/24 when doing ground work, because I know I can get that stuff down there easily then.

Also, as that mulch decomposes, it'll need more lime ontop of that.

What was there, overgrown field, mature trees? Likely going to deal with a weed outbreak of some sort.

I work with small plots, so cost per acre isnt as big of a deal for me. I have in the past mixed pelletized lime with my small seeds, and always add some lime every time i fertilize. The fertilizer lowers the pH. I usually add the same weight of lime and fertilizer. I've never had issues mixing lime and it hurting the seed. I always wonder about that when mixing fertilizer and seed. I havent had a bad experience yet. But, I am trying to avoid that in the future.

I'd spot treat those bare spots with some rye seed with a bucket of soil spread ontop, add what you like in the summer once you warm up, or better yet keep the rye going to choke out what seeds might be dormant and sprouting this summer.

Im guessing here, but recent forestry mulched area might prefer something real easy to grow with larger seed. Not sure if clover and turnips would do that great now. small grains would definitely find good soil quickly. The average soil pH is a general idea of what you have. but that localized layer of decomposing forestry mulch will likely cause problems with certain seeds when they sprout. I'd definitely plant a blend of seeds and see which one takes off.

Pick a few acres, preferably hillier and brushier. And never go in it. They'll use it for bedding. Little ridge lines, hilltop, somewhere they can see a bit better and maybe get some morning sun to warm up.

When I use to flintlock hunt PA in january, I use to be able to predict where bucks were. In a typical hardwood forest, you find a spot on pine trees, they always be under them. Not sure if it's rain cover, but even on sunny days they be bedded down. Might be the nice pine straw and less snow. but, if you can recreate that, all the better. I used to put hay down in one spot behind my mom's house. The does would always be bedded in it.

 

[Bassattackr]

Nutrient leaching is very dependent on soil CEC..

Lower CEC values see lime, fertilizers be available more quickly in the root zone, however they tend to migrate out more quickly over time. Opposite holds true for high CEC soils.