PlotStart by DeerGro

[yoderjac]

Terry is convincing me that my plan may not be a bad one.

Peplin Creek, what would some of your long term concerns be for soil health? I'm interested in trying it out for short term gains, but I sure don't want to screw things up long term.

I doubt you will have any long term soil health issues from the product. Deep tillage is a much greater threat to soil health. If cost is not an issue, I see no other down side. Simply don't expect to have the same effect of applying lime at the rate recommended by your soil test. It may well in fact demonstrate a faster response than ag or pelletized lime.

However, I'll suggest an alternate plan that will save you money and yield good results. First, apply your pelletized lime as per your soil test recommendation now. Then, plant buckwheat this summer. It will tolerate low pH and infertile soil. No tillage, just spray, scratch the surface if necessary, broadcast, and cultipack. Deer use buckwheat but don't generally abuse it unless you have very high densities or very little alternative quality foods nearby. Not only will this give you something short-term in the summer, you will get and idea of how much pressure your plot will get from deer. An exclusion cages is always a good idea on a new plot.

Then com fall, see if there are enough weeds in the buckwheat to require spraying. Spray if necessary. Surface broadcast winter rye. Cultipack the buckwheat or mow it. Winter Rye is a good deer food that can handle poor pH, and infertility, as well as browse pressure. By now, your pelletized lime will have made an impact on your soil. That impact will continue for a while. The higher the clay content, the longer it will take before maintenance lime is required.

Compare this to a plan where you spend money to try to amend quickly, then plant a highly attractive crop that requires good pH and fertility. With only a 1/4 acre, suppose deer come in and wipe it out before it becomes established. The approach I outlined above has a high chance of success with no snake oil.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[Scott S]

I doubt you will have any long term soil health issues from the product. Deep tillage is a much greater threat to soil health. If cost is not an issue, I see no other down side. Simply don't expect to have the same effect of applying lime at the rate recommended by your soil test. It may well in fact demonstrate a faster response than ag or pelletized lime.

However, I'll suggest an alternate plan that will save you money and yield good results. First, apply your pelletized lime as per your soil test recommendation now. Then, plant buckwheat this summer. It will tolerate low pH and infertile soil. No tillage, just spray, scratch the surface if necessary, broadcast, and cultipack. Deer use buckwheat but don't generally abuse it unless you have very high densities or very little alternative quality foods nearby. Not only will this give you something short-term in the summer, you will get and idea of how much pressure your plot will get from deer. An exclusion cages is always a good idea on a new plot.

Then com fall, see if there are enough weeds in the buckwheat to require spraying. Spray if necessary. Surface broadcast winter rye. Cultipack the buckwheat or mow it. Winter Rye is a good deer food that can handle poor pH, and infertility, as well as browse pressure. By now, your pelletized lime will have made an impact on your soil. That impact will continue for a while. The higher the clay content, the longer it will take before maintenance lime is required.

Compare this to a plan where you spend money to try to amend quickly, then plant a highly attractive crop that requires good pH and fertility. With only a 1/4 acre, suppose deer come in and wipe it out before it becomes established. The approach I outlined above has a high chance of success with no snake oil.

Thanks,

Jack

Jack,
Roger that. Thank you for taking the time to respond. Buckwheat and winter rye are exactly what I plan to plant, based on everything I've read here on HT.

I wish I had to worry about deer wiping my plot out. I'll be thrilled if I get the same 5-6 deer in it consistently.

 

[yoderjac]

Jack,
Roger that. Thank you for taking the time to respond. Buckwheat and winter rye are exactly what I plan to plant, based on everything I've read here on HT.

I wish I had to worry about deer wiping my plot out. I'll be thrilled if I get the same 5-6 deer in it consistently.

They will do fine without immediate pH adjustment and will do even better as the pH adjusts over time. 5-6 deer consistently in a 1/4 acre plot will wipe out many crops before they establish.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[Peplin Creek]

Terry is convincing me that my plan may not be a bad one.

Peplin Creek, what would some of your long term concerns be for soil health? I'm interested in trying it out for short term gains, but I sure don't want to screw things up long term.

My concerns come from a posts on another forum. One of the users talked how this product is a calcium chloride product and truly doesn’t raise PH and in turn can lower PH long term.

I don’t know for sure what the long term effects truly are but adding more lime seams like a safer play.

http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=2466867#/topics/2466867?page=1

 

[Scott S]

Thank you Peplin Creek and Jack. I will not be using PlotStart. I very much appreciate the information.

 

[yoderjac]

My concerns come from a posts on another forum. One of the users talked how this product is a calcium chloride product and truly doesn’t raise PH and in turn can lower PH long term.

I don’t know for sure what the long term effects truly are but adding more lime seams like a safer play.

http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=2466867#/topics/2466867?page=1

Pep,

I think you caution is wise. While I don't see anything that is an obvious compromise of soil health with this particular product (but I'm no soil scientist), there is a lot of snake oil being sold out there and there is no doubt in my mind that some of it can do more harm than good.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[Telemark]

My concerns come from a posts on another forum. One of the users talked how this product is a calcium chloride product and truly doesn’t raise PH and in turn can lower PH long term.

I don’t know for sure what the long term effects truly are but adding more lime seams like a safer play.

http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=2466867#/topics/2466867?page=1

He's wrong, plain and simple.

 

[4wanderingeyes]

My opinion is, get pellet lime spread in there, add whatever P&K the plot needs this spring, pick an easy to grow plot this year (Winter Rye, Buckwheat, clover, etc..) then next year redo your soil samples and reapply what is needed next spring, and plant what you want without the expensive band aid.

If you can get an ATV with a trailer there, you can even get some ag lime, and spread it with a shovel. A quarter acre shouldnt take much time and effert, and save you some more money. I did this to 3 3/4 acre plots with a pickup load full of ag lime. One person driving the truck, the other in the back tossing/spreading out shovels full of lime. Worked great, it was some work, but it was done easily in a few hours.

 

[4wanderingeyes]

Another thing I do, which some may frown upon, after you amend your soil to your second year soil test, I just skip the next few years soil tests, and add 1/4- 1/3 the past years recommendations for P&K for 3-4 years, then retest again. It usually stays close to what you want. Remember you are growing something for deer to eat, not depending on it for a living.

I grew up farming, and after a while, you knew what the soil needed each year. We would just do a soil test every 3 years, then add a maintenance application every year. Being the tests are just approximates anyhow, and you usually have a range to fit into. You can send in 3 samples from the same 1 acre field, and get 3 close, but different recommendations.

 

[Scott S]

Another thing I do, which some may frown upon, after you amend your soil to your second year soil test, I just skip the next few years soil tests, and add 1/4- 1/3 the past years recommendations for P&K for 3-4 years, then retest again. It usually stays close to what you want. Remember you are growing something for deer to eat, not depending on it for a living.

I grew up farming, and after a while, you knew what the soil needed each year. We would just do a soil test every 3 years, then add a maintenance application every year. Being the tests are just approximates anyhow, and you usually have a range to fit into. You can send in 3 samples from the same 1 acre field, and get 3 close, but different recommendations.

Very much appreciated 4 wanderingeyes. Thank you.

 

[yoderjac]

Another thing I do, which some may frown upon, after you amend your soil to your second year soil test, I just skip the next few years soil tests, and add 1/4- 1/3 the past years recommendations for P&K for 3-4 years, then retest again. It usually stays close to what you want. Remember you are growing something for deer to eat, not depending on it for a living.

I grew up farming, and after a while, you knew what the soil needed each year. We would just do a soil test every 3 years, then add a maintenance application every year. Being the tests are just approximates anyhow, and you usually have a range to fit into. You can send in 3 samples from the same 1 acre field, and get 3 close, but different recommendations.

Also, keep in mind that while we have some things in common with farmers, we have many differences. Soil tests are intended for farmers who are trying to maximize yield of monocultures and harvest crops removing many nutrients from the soil. Folks managing for wildlife are in a far different situation. Soil tests are a great place to start, especially if you are new to this and the plot is new as well. However, we don't harvest and if we are smart we don't plant many monocultures and when we do we rotate effectively. We don't plant corn 2 years in a row because we expect corn prices to be up and soybean prices to be down or the reverse. In many respects we are more like folks who plant for livestock to graze. Instead of most nutrients being removed, they are cycled. I completely ignore N requirements. The only N that gets added when I fertilize is the low percentage that is in the MAP that I use to achieve my P objectives. Folks like you who have been at this for a while get the hang of things and let the crops tell them what they need over time.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[Peplin Creek]

Pep,

I think you caution is wise. While I don't see anything that is an obvious compromise of soil health with this particular product (but I'm no soil scientist), there is a lot of snake oil being sold out there and there is no doubt in my mind that some of it can do more harm than good.

Thanks,

Jack

I agree, I have no idea if this stuff works or is snake oil but liming is tried true. Why risk it when lime is probably already the cheaper option.

 

[Peplin Creek]

He's wrong, plain and simple.

Can you elaborate with why it’s wrong? If it truly is, we should set the record straight and get the right information out there for people.

 

[Telemark]

Can you elaborate with why it’s wrong? If it truly is, we should set the record straight and get the right information out there for people.

Where to start...

Calcium IS very basic.
Calcium chloride is generally harmless to plants.
Calcium chloride won't stay in the soil or affect groundwater.
I don't even know what he means by it "is derived from Salt Brines."

And this is assuming there is calcium chloride in the product.

The guy sounds like a total lunatic. And he's just plain wrong on his chemistry claims.

 

[Scott S]

Where to start...

Calcium IS very basic.
Calcium chloride is generally harmless to plants.
Calcium chloride won't stay in the soil or affect groundwater.
I don't even know what he means by it "is derived from Salt Brines."

And this is assuming there is calcium chloride in the product.

The guy sounds like a total lunatic. And he's just plain wrong on his chemistry claims.

Thank you Telemark. I'm personally going to stick to hauling bags of pelletized lime on my shoulders out to my plot until I know more about this product, but I appreciate you expressing the opposing point of view.

 

[Peplin Creek]

Where to start...

Calcium IS very basic.
Calcium chloride is generally harmless to plants.
Calcium chloride won't stay in the soil or affect groundwater.
I don't even know what he means by it "is derived from Salt Brines."

And this is assuming there is calcium chloride in the product.

The guy sounds like a total lunatic. And he's just plain wrong on his chemistry claims.

I was looking online last night and this morning. It does look like Agrigro the company behind deergro, does use calcium chloride brines to get the calcium into its product. It does seem logical that positive results are from a calcium deficiency for the plants and not from an increase in PH. So it seems it’s more of a fertilizer than a lime substitute.

I wasn’t able to find long term effects of calcium chloride on soil. Everything that I find pertains to winter runoff and how animals shouldn’t ingest it. So it seems like affects could be Seasonal I guess.

I do think it’s interesting that they state plotstart should not be sprayed onto growing vegetation. Doing so will cause harm to the plant. Seems harsh and something people should know. Is this possibly from the salt content if any? I don’t know.

I still think liming is the best route long term. It would be interesting for someone to do a before and after on PH for this product.

 

[Telemark]

I still think liming is the best route long term. It would be interesting for someone to do a before and after on PH for this product

I agree. I think the product is exactly what it seems: a one-time use product to increase plant growth in a food plot, especially one with less-than-ideal soil chemistry.

 

[yoderjac]

I agree. I think the product is exactly what it seems: a one-time use product to increase plant growth in a food plot, especially one with less-than-ideal soil chemistry.

Yes, I don't see it as an effective substitute for lime, but I doubt there are significant issues with soil health from using it. It is funny how we use some product or technique and think it is fantastic when we get great results when 90% of our success or failure is due to our timing as it relates to mother natures timing.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[Telemark]

Thank you Telemark. I'm personally going to stick to hauling bags of pelletized lime on my shoulders out to my plot until I know more about this product, but I appreciate you expressing the opposing point of view.

I'll be doing the same.



I need something long-term for the plots I'm building, and I have time to do it this year. But i think these products should work for someone who needs a one-off short-term fix to increase his odds when the season opens.

I read a lot of product reviews before I buy products, and sometimes I try new products that haven't been reviewed. I have come to the conclusion that "no magic beans" and "YMMV" apply to just about every product and strategy out there in the hunting world. But most of them do seem to have at least a niche use.

 

[Kooch]

Me too.