Planting into clover question

[davidhelmly]

I manage a 1250 acre lease in W Central Ga and we have around 40 acres of plots, I normally try and keep about 25 acres in a clover mix and the remainder in a brassica mix. I mix cereal grain with everything that I plant but of course after the first year the clover plots are just clover, I overseeded all of our plots that were brassica last season with a clover mix last weekend because the deer had just hammered the brassica and most of the plots looked like they had been plowed from the deer digging up the bulbs. I normally rotate from clover to brassica when the clover gets extremely weedy, sometime I will do brassica just one year before going back to clover and sometime I will do brassica 2 years in a row before rotating back to clover.

All that being said I've really been reading a lot about cover crops and keeping something growing on the soil all the time for the last couple of years, that's the main reason I overseeded last years brassca with clover this past weekend. Our clover plots do pretty well most all year unless it just gets extremely hot and dry for extended periods in the summer, 2016 was the worst drought we have ever had that I can remember. With the exception of renting a no till drill one year I have always used conventional tillage and there is always a plot or two that I'm going to plant that doesn't get plowed for whatever reason until the planting day, those plots always have much more moisture than the plots that were plowed a week or two earlier and have just been baking in the sun so I know there is merit to keeping something growing at all times.

My question is, if I could get clover growing in all of our plots and then used either a no till or minimum till drill to plant either cereal grain or a brassica mix or both into the existing clover every fall and not spray the clover what would happen? Would the clover keep the plots covered and hold more moisture allowing the newly planted crop to take advantage of the added moisture and the nitrogen that the clover has fixed? If the brassica and cereal grain did well would the clover then take back over in the spring/summer if I mowed off the leftover vegetation from the previous planting and be ready for a repeat in October?

My experience with the no till I rented from the county a few years back was a complete nightmare due to lack of maintenance and broken parts not reported by previous renters so I won't go that route again, I spent pretty much an entire weekend working on it rather than planting with it. A 7-8' no till that plants multiple seeds is just WAY out of my price range so I've been looking at planters like the Woods, Plotmaster, and a few others. From what I've seen and read I think a Woods PSS84 would work great for me, I've read horrible reports on them but have also talked to several people who have them and just rave about them. It's doubtful that I will come up with the money for a planter this year but hopefully by next year it will happen.

There is a ton of knowledge here so all suggestions and comments are welcome, let me know what you think about my plan.

 

[Smallplot]

Likely you would not like the outcome as clover is very good at keeping other plants at bay most of the time.

You would still need to either plant when the clover is dormant (not usually happening when planting fall plots) or set back the clover via chemical means.

Just like all other throw and grow threads, there is a ratio of growth to ground cover for a successful stand following sewing of seeds.


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[S.T.Fanatic]

My suggestion would be to have some plots in only annual clovers that you are going to be planting brassica and cereal into and to have others in perennial clovers that you will leave clover only for multiple years before rotating them into your brassica/cereal mix. You'll have to plot them all out on paper and decide how many years you will do annuals in each plot and which ones to flip flop with your perennials and what not.

I would think that in the south you could find some sort of reseeding annual clover that you could do a thrown and mow brassica/cereal mix into and the annual clover would bounce back the following year.

 

[bueller]

I have a plot of red clover that I overseed with winter rye every fall. The rye and clover both thrive. I let the rye mature and fall over each summer. Haven't mowed or dragged this plot for several years. Last fall I spread some white clover with the rye in hopes of getting it to establish also.

I'd save a lot of money and time if I converted all of my plots to this style. And probably attract/feed the deer just as good if not better.

 

[Bill]

I know you said "and not spray the clover". But if you want to do no tillage hitting the clover with gly and broadcasting brassica's or rye the same day should work well. Just have to time it when you know a soaker is in the forecast to beat the seed down into the dirt a bit. In MO I would try this with brassica's in July and rye in Sept. Your growing season is way different so you would have to adjust accordingly.

Again, in MO I can do this and still have some clover bounce back when the temps cool down. The gly just sets it back enough to let what I've seeded take hold.

I experimented this past summer with clipping the clover down to dirt and seeding brassica's when the cover was dormant from the August heat. I figured they would take hold before the clover bounced back. That was a failure :) it didn't rain until it cooled down and the clover choked out everything.

 

[yoderjac]

I manage a 1250 acre lease in W Central Ga and we have around 40 acres of plots, I normally try and keep about 25 acres in a clover mix and the remainder in a brassica mix. I mix cereal grain with everything that I plant but of course after the first year the clover plots are just clover, I overseeded all of our plots that were brassica last season with a clover mix last weekend because the deer had just hammered the brassica and most of the plots looked like they had been plowed from the deer digging up the bulbs. I normally rotate from clover to brassica when the clover gets extremely weedy, sometime I will do brassica just one year before going back to clover and sometime I will do brassica 2 years in a row before rotating back to clover.

All that being said I've really been reading a lot about cover crops and keeping something growing on the soil all the time for the last couple of years, that's the main reason I overseeded last years brassca with clover this past weekend. Our clover plots do pretty well most all year unless it just gets extremely hot and dry for extended periods in the summer, 2016 was the worst drought we have ever had that I can remember. With the exception of renting a no till drill one year I have always used conventional tillage and there is always a plot or two that I'm going to plant that doesn't get plowed for whatever reason until the planting day, those plots always have much more moisture than the plots that were plowed a week or two earlier and have just been baking in the sun so I know there is merit to keeping something growing at all times.

My question is, if I could get clover growing in all of our plots and then used either a no till or minimum till drill to plant either cereal grain or a brassica mix or both into the existing clover every fall and not spray the clover what would happen? Would the clover keep the plots covered and hold more moisture allowing the newly planted crop to take advantage of the added moisture and the nitrogen that the clover has fixed? If the brassica and cereal grain did well would the clover then take back over in the spring/summer if I mowed off the leftover vegetation from the previous planting and be ready for a repeat in October?

My experience with the no till I rented from the county a few years back was a complete nightmare due to lack of maintenance and broken parts not reported by previous renters so I won't go that route again, I spent pretty much an entire weekend working on it rather than planting with it. A 7-8' no till that plants multiple seeds is just WAY out of my price range so I've been looking at planters like the Woods, Plotmaster, and a few others. From what I've seen and read I think a Woods PSS84 would work great for me, I've read horrible reports on them but have also talked to several people who have them and just rave about them. It's doubtful that I will come up with the money for a planter this year but hopefully by next year it will happen.

There is a ton of knowledge here so all suggestions and comments are welcome, let me know what you think about my plan.

The key is timing. As others have said, the process as you describe it will likely yield disappointment. There are several methods that will work well. If you are using ladino or similar clover that goes dormant in the summer, you can no-till when it is dormant with rain in the forecast. Brassica or cereal will germinate and get above the clover before it fills in. If you have a weedy clover field, you can spray it with 1 qt/ac glyphosate to suppress it with rain in the forecast. This will kill grasses and many broadleaf weeds and top kill the clover. The brassica/cereal will germinate and then the clover will bounce back from the root system. If the field is not weedy, clover can be suppressed simply by bushogging it flat so you are almost scalping.

Half of this ladino clover field was suppressed with gly with rain in the forecast and the other half was bushhogged flat. I then used a no-till drill to drill groundhog radish and Winter Rye into it. Here is a closeup.

As you can see, the GHR germinated and got above the clover as did the WR. GHR is easier to see because the leaves are larger but there is winter rye in their too if you look close. When evenings turn cool and our fall rains hit during the next few weeks, the clover filled in nicely.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[NT179]

We have horses and when our timothy fields are thinning out,I will not cut them.Then towards the end of august I will pull my 3 pt disc with a old horse disc behind that followed by a steel H beam. The discs lightly cut the sod and the beam flattens the standing timothy. After 2 years of this,the stand of timothy has really thickened. The discs just cut the sod a hair so the new seed has soil,seed contact. This might work for your clover plots.I might give it a try.

 

[davidhelmly]

Great feedback and suggestions, exactly what I was looking for!!

 

[davidhelmly]

I know you said "and not spray the clover". But if you want to do no tillage hitting the clover with gly and broadcasting brassica's or rye the same day should work well. Just have to time it when you know a soaker is in the forecast to beat the seed down into the dirt a bit. In MO I would try this with brassica's in July and rye in Sept. Your growing season is way different so you would have to adjust accordingly.

Again, in MO I can do this and still have some clover bounce back when the temps cool down. The gly just sets it back enough to let what I've seeded take hold.

I experimented this past summer with clipping the clover down to dirt and seeding brassica's when the cover was dormant from the August heat. I figured they would take hold before the clover bounced back. That was a failure :) it didn't rain until it cooled down and the clover choked out everything.

I have read where people spray their clover with a light dose of gly to kill weeds but I've always been afraid to try it. Here in GA I usually plant my brassica in mid-late Aug and cereal grains and clover late Sept or early Oct depending on the weather. If I don't get a planter before this fall I may try the light gly spray or low mowed clover and just broadcast into it before a rain!

 

[davidhelmly]

The key is timing. As others have said, the process as you describe it will likely yield disappointment. There are several methods that will work well. If you are using ladino or similar clover that goes dormant in the summer, you can no-till when it is dormant with rain in the forecast. Brassica or cereal will germinate and get above the clover before it fills in. If you have a weedy clover field, you can spray it with 1 qt/ac glyphosate to suppress it with rain in the forecast. This will kill grasses and many broadleaf weeds and top kill the clover. The brassica/cereal will germinate and then the clover will bounce back from the root system. If the field is not weedy, clover can be suppressed simply by bushogging it flat so you are almost scalping.

Half of this ladino clover field was suppressed with gly with rain in the forecast and the other half was bushhogged flat. I then used a no-till drill to drill groundhog radish and Winter Rye into it. Here is a closeup.

As you can see, the GHR germinated and got above the clover as did the WR. GHR is easier to see because the leaves are larger but there is winter rye in their too if you look close. When evenings turn cool and our fall rains hit during the next few weeks, the clover filled in nicely.

Thanks,

Jack

That looks exactly like what I would want my plots to look like. I normally use a mix of alice, medium red and balansa clovers and don't normally get any dormancy but it still slows down pretty good in August and that may be my window of opportunity!!

 

[davidhelmly]

We have horses and when our timothy fields are thinning out,I will not cut them.Then towards the end of august I will pull my 3 pt disc with a old horse disc behind that followed by a steel H beam. The discs lightly cut the sod and the beam flattens the standing timothy. After 2 years of this,the stand of timothy has really thickened. The discs just cut the sod a hair so the new seed has soil,seed contact. This might work for your clover plots.I might give it a try.

Your disc setup sounds like it works very similar to the planters I've been looking at, it sounds worth a try.

 

[Bill]

I have read where people spray their clover with a light dose of gly to kill weeds but I've always been afraid to try it. Here in GA I usually plant my brassica in mid-late Aug and cereal grains and clover late Sept or early Oct depending on the weather. If I don't get a planter before this fall I may try the light gly spray or low mowed clover and just broadcast into it before a rain!

It may be my farm and the seed bank but if spray 2 quarts per acre on anything, clover takes over. I don't like spraying light for fear of resistance. Some clovers are tough to kill...

 

[davidhelmly]

It may be my farm and the seed bank but if spray 2 quarts per acre on anything, clover takes over. I don't like spraying light for fear of resistance. Some clovers are tough to kill...

I wish I had your seed bank, if I spray and kill anything coffeeweed, dog fennel and sericea come up!

 

[SwampCat]

I have an 84” woods seeder. It is not a no-till drill - but it may be tougher and better suited to 1 to 3 acre small woods plots. My nrcs guy told me he wouldnt rent their drill to me for planting my food plots with standing trees and roots. A woods seeder is not the end all of planting equipment. I use a variety of methods but rely most on the woods. I have only planted with one for a year, so I am no expert. I have a two acre durana clover plot that I bush hogged in Aug last year - just clipping the top of the clover. I came back the end of Oct and direct seeded wheat into the durana with a fairly aggressive disk angle - maybe 12 degress. Wheat came up great and it seemed to rejuvenate the clover. I also added a little more clover at the same time. 20 minutes per acre with the woods seeder. I then came back and bush hogged again. First pick is what the plot looked like before summer bush hogging and second pick is what it looked like the day I seeded.

 

[Wild Thing]

I haven't planted any brassicas into clovers but I often drill some rye into clover strips in the fall and then terminate the rye in the spring by spraying with Clethodim:

 

[Bowman]

The key is timing. As others have said, the process as you describe it will likely yield disappointment. There are several methods that will work well. If you are using ladino or similar clover that goes dormant in the summer, you can no-till when it is dormant with rain in the forecast. Brassica or cereal will germinate and get above the clover before it fills in. If you have a weedy clover field, you can spray it with 1 qt/ac glyphosate to suppress it with rain in the forecast. This will kill grasses and many broadleaf weeds and top kill the clover. The brassica/cereal will germinate and then the clover will bounce back from the root system. If the field is not weedy, clover can be suppressed simply by bushogging it flat so you are almost scalping.

Half of this ladino clover field was suppressed with gly with rain in the forecast and the other half was bushhogged flat. I then used a no-till drill to drill groundhog radish and Winter Rye into it. Here is a closeup.

As you can see, the GHR germinated and got above the clover as did the WR. GHR is easier to see because the leaves are larger but there is winter rye in their too if you look close. When evenings turn cool and our fall rains hit during the next few weeks, the clover filled in nicely.

Thanks,

Jack

Which half was which? Your preference between the methods?

 

[yoderjac]

Which half was which? Your preference between the methods?

This was done and the picture taken quite a few years ago. My best recollection is that the side of the field on the right of the picture was suppress with gly and the other suppressed by bushhogging flat. They look the same.

My preference depends on the conditions of the field. If the field has few weeds or grasses and is mostly clover, I prefer bushhogging. It is less expensive and there is less chance of creating glyphosate resistant weeds. In a younger field like this, the purpose of drilling into clover is to increase variety and attraction and to use up some of the N the clover banks earlier in the lifecycle of the field to delay the infiltration of grasses.

If the field is older and has been infiltrated by grasses and I want to get a few more years out if it and I don't have glyphosate resistant weeds in it, I like to spray 1 qt/ac gly. This is sufficient to kill the grasses and some broadleaf weeds. So, when the clover bounces back I typically get several more years out of the clover field.

Eventually, a clover field needs rested. I typically plant something like buckwheat tin the spring, brassica in the summer, and WR in the fall. All use up the banked N. After a year or so of this I can rotate back into clover.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[Bowman]

Thanks for the quick response. Most guys on forums see stuff in pictures that I don't or can't. i don't know if they can enlarge the pictures or if I just don't know enough. To me, the left side of the field looks plenty good. I am not a chemical guy, so naturally I prefer mowing. I try to keep weeds like thistles to keep from seeding. My soil is not good enough yet to grow thick brassicas yet. Rye to me is an all star. FWIW, here is some info.
The Four Grazing Factors: Grazing Intensity Effects on the Individual Plant

Percent Leaf Volume Removed Percent Root Growth Stoppage

10% ......................................................... 0%

20% ......................................................... 0%

30% ......................................................... 0%

40% ......................................................... 0%

50% ..........................................................2-4%

60% ....................................................... 50%

70% ....................................................... 78%

>80% ............................. …..................100%
I agree on timing and think that mowing when the plant is not stressed is a tool to enhance successional plantings.

 

[yoderjac]

Thanks for the quick response. Most guys on forums see stuff in pictures that I don't or can't. i don't know if they can enlarge the pictures or if I just don't know enough. To me, the left side of the field looks plenty good. I am not a chemical guy, so naturally I prefer mowing. I try to keep weeds like thistles to keep from seeding. My soil is not good enough yet to grow thick brassicas yet. Rye to me is an all star. FWIW, here is some info.
The Four Grazing Factors: Grazing Intensity Effects on the Individual Plant

Percent Leaf Volume Removed Percent Root Growth Stoppage

10% ......................................................... 0%

20% ......................................................... 0%

30% ......................................................... 0%

40% ......................................................... 0%

50% ..........................................................2-4%

60% ....................................................... 50%

70% ....................................................... 78%

>80% ............................. …..................100%
I agree on timing and think that mowing when the plant is not stressed is a tool to enhance successional plantings.

I think there are two sides to consider. For establishing a new clover field, fall planting with a WR nurse crop followed by timely mowing the first spring is key to getting off to a good start. Over mowing or mowing when stressed can actually advantage summer weeds over clover.

On the other hand, once a clover field is older, I sometimes purposely stress the clover to temporarily suppress it. Whether by mow flat (removing nearly 100% of the leaf mass) or applying 1 qt/ac glyphosate. I'm stressing the clover to the point of top-klll. This allows the drilled cereal and radish time to germinate and get above the clover. The clover eventually bounces back and fills in. Since the cereal and radish are annuals, they eventually die out having consumed some N.

Timing is key, but there are several timing scenarios. For example if you are in an area where ladino clover goes dormant in the summer, you can spray the gly and drill the radish then. Because the clover is dormant, it is already stressed but summer heat, but because it is not actively growing, the gly does not further stress it but it does kill the weeds. Another scenario might be with Durana that may not go dormant during the summer depending on conditions. In that case, it make sense to wait until fall when (in my area) rains become much more reliable. Top killing the clover with gly or mowing it flat (if weeds are not an issue), with good rain in the forecast, ensures that the drilled seed will germinate quickly and the clover won't be further stressed by drought as it bounces back. If I sprayed actively growing clover in the middle of summer or mowed it flat and then we got a dry spell, the combinations of stresses may totally kill the clover rather than just top killing it.

The numbers you post above have the most relevance when applied to regular mowing of a young clover field rather than refurbishment.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[Bowman]

Thanks. I would consider a timely late mowing to establish rye and brassicas. Plus an overseeding of clovers.