Persimmon Fruit Shape

[Native Hunter]

I know that there are astringent and non astringent varieties of persimmons. The astringent type are the natives on my place and all I have ever seen. Basically, some are larger than others but all of them are shaped about the same.

I have a seedling that is bearing for the first time this year which has persimmons that are shaped differently. I think this tree came from some free trees that the NWTF gave away, but I'm not 100% sure. To me, the shape of this persimmon resembles the oriental varieties that I've seen pictures of, but the size is more like American.

First picture is one of my native trees. This is what I'm used to seeing. Second and third pic is the tree that is different. I'm looking for any feedback on why this tree's fruit looks different. I suspect that Jack may have an answer since he has been grafting persimmons much longer than me and has seen several of the different named varieties. Thanks!

 

[H20fwler]

I don't know zip about persimmons wish they would grow for me up here in my clay....both types of yours look great!

 

[yoderjac]

Steve,

There are 3 types of persimmons, Diospyros kaki, Diospyros lotus, and Diospyros virginiana. The last is native to the eastern US (American) and the others are oriental. We now have some hybrids that are crosses and back-crosses between these. One that I've been playing with is named Nikita's Gift which is a back-cross with kaki and virginiana. I have very little hands-on experience with the oriental varieties beyond this hybrid. The reason is that when I first did my research into persimmons I found that the oriental varieties don't fall from the tree when ripe. This makes them less than ideal for my application for deer. So, anything beyond that with oriental persimmons comes from my reading, not hands-on experience.

American persimmons are all astringent. The astringency protects them from most critters before they are ripe. This is one reason I like them because they generally lose their astringency after falling to the ground giving deer a fair chance to get them in competition with other wildlife (everything in the woods seems to love them). Oriental persimmons can be astringent or non-astringent depending on the individual variety. Non-astringent Oriental persimmons have the double negative for may application in that tree climbing critters can eat them before they ripen and they generally don't fall to the ground making deer use problematic. Don't get me wrong, if deer can get them they will definitely eat them.

Persimmons can take on a variety of shapes. The first picture looks like the same native American persimmon I have. It is likely the southern strain of American persimmon based on your location if it is native. They have 60 chromosomes and generally produce smaller persimmons and are less cold hardy. The northern strain of persimmon has 90 chromosomes and generally produce larger persimmons. Consequently most of the grafting done for commercialization was done with the northern strain so most of the named varieties are northern.

The Nikita's Gift hybrid that I have is just starting to produce fruit. I have seen that 4 quadrant shape in the few it produced. I presume it comes from the Kaki side but I'm not certain. I've seen all kinds of shapes in oriental persimmons. Here is a web site with some good fruit shape pictures you can compare as the fruit matures: http://www.growables.org/information/TropicalFruit/persimmonvarieties.htm I have not seen that 4 quadrant shape in any of the northern strain of persimmons that are producing for me so I presume yours has Kaki or Lotus genes.

H2OFowler,

I don't think the issue is heavy clay. I have very heavy clay soil and plenty of native persimmons.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[Native Hunter]

Steve,

There are 3 types of persimmons, Diospyros kaki, Diospyros lotus, and Diospyros virginiana. The last is native to the eastern US (American) and the others are oriental. We now have some hybrids that are crosses and back-crosses between these. One that I've been playing with is named Nikita's Gift which is a back-cross with kaki and virginiana. I have very little hands-on experience with the oriental varieties beyond this hybrid. The reason is that when I first did my research into persimmons I found that the oriental varieties don't fall from the tree when ripe. This makes them less than ideal for my application for deer. So, anything beyond that with oriental persimmons comes from my reading, not hands-on experience.

American persimmons are all astringent. The astringency protects them from most critters before they are ripe. This is one reason I like them because they generally lose their astringency after falling to the ground giving deer a fair chance to get them in competition with other wildlife (everything in the woods seems to love them). Oriental persimmons can be astringent or non-astringent depending on the individual variety. Non-astringent Oriental persimmons have the double negative for may application in that tree climbing critters can eat them before they ripen and they generally don't fall to the ground making deer use problematic. Don't get me wrong, if deer can get them they will definitely eat them.

Persimmons can take on a variety of shapes. The first picture looks like the same native American persimmon I have. It is likely the southern strain of American persimmon based on your location if it is native. They have 60 chromosomes and generally produce smaller persimmons and are less cold hardy. The northern strain of persimmon has 90 chromosomes and generally produce larger persimmons. Consequently most of the grafting done for commercialization was done with the northern strain so most of the named varieties are northern.

The Nikita's Gift hybrid that I have is just starting to produce fruit. I have seen that 4 quadrant shape in the few it produced. I presume it comes from the Kaki side but I'm not certain. I've seen all kinds of shapes in oriental persimmons. Here is a web site with some good fruit shape pictures you can compare as the fruit matures: http://www.growables.org/information/TropicalFruit/persimmonvarieties.htm I have not seen that 4 quadrant shape in any of the northern strain of persimmons that are producing for me so I presume yours has Kaki or Lotus genes.

H2OFowler,

I don't think the issue is heavy clay. I have very heavy clay soil and plenty of native persimmons.

Thanks,

Jack

Thanks Jack. You have confirmed what I suspected. That seedling more than likely is a cross between a Native American Persimmon and an Oriental Variety. The 4 quadrant shape looked familiar from seeing pictures of the Orientals, but I had never seen it on a wild persimmon.

This tree is at an easy place to watch, and I will be passing it often when I check one of my cameras. I'm anxious to see what these persimmons eventually become and when (and if) they drop. The tree is still young so we will see how big it gets. Right now it is not much over 10 feet tall and probably has 15-20 fruits.

I'm pretty sure it came in a bundle of seedlings that I got from the NWTF once. No telling where it came from.

 

[yoderjac]

Thanks Jack. You have confirmed what I suspected. That seedling more than likely is a cross between a Native American Persimmon and an Oriental Variety. The 4 quadrant shape looked familiar from seeing pictures of the Orientals, but I had never seen it on a wild persimmon.

This tree is at an easy place to watch, and I will be passing it often when I check one of my cameras. I'm anxious to see what these persimmons eventually become and when (and if) they drop. The tree is still young so we will see how big it gets. Right now it is not much over 10 feet tall and probably has 15-20 fruits.

I'm pretty sure it came in a bundle of seedlings that I got from the NWTF once. No telling where it came from.

I've also seen oriental persimmons that are more acorn shaped. Since turkeys can fly up into trees, I can certainly see how NWTF might see oriental as habitat improvement for turkey. They also probably struck the best deal they could with whatever nursery provided them trees. There are plenty of folks who market oriental for deer because they seem to produce fruit faster, but I just don't see them as a great fit for me.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[H20fwler]

H2OFowler,

I don't think the issue is heavy clay. I have very heavy clay soil and plenty of native persimmons.

Thanks,

Jack

Maybe it's my northern location...or more that I just don't know how to raise them enough to get them going? I need to try harder!

 

[yoderjac]

Maybe it's my northern location...or more that I just don't know how to raise them enough to get them going? I need to try harder!

You should be ok in 6A. The native range of persimmons goes into south east OH. You can find persimmons that are hardy to zone 5.

 

[Native Hunter]

The strange persimmon is already turning orange and falling off the tree. I found one that the Deer hadn’t got. It was soft and sweet. Had no idea any persimmons ripened so early.

https://imgur.com/iiYswGw

 

[yoderjac]

I don't know a lot about Kaki, but I know one of the objectives with many of the American persimmon breeding program was to produce earlier ripening persimmons. This was for the commercial market. Persimmons don't keep very long once they ripen. The idea was to have a longer harvest season so producers could harvest and ship fresh persimmons over a longer time period.

I have found that many of the named varieties of American persimmons ripen significantly earlier than my native trees do. There are some American persimmons that ripen in August in some areas.

Thanks,

Jack