Opening area in the timber

[Livesintrees]

So I’m on the hunt for an exact location for the future mini orchard. Last time I asked here about location for the sake of some preliminary info I was told an area that was slightly higher in elevation to prevent being in a possible frost “zone” I believe was the term. Also if I remember correctly it was also to encourage better airflow to help with disease.

Basically to me this means don’t put it in a low lying spot on the property. So I’m looking at an area that is a very gradual slope currently. I can’t go high as thats where deer prefer to bed as where I’m enhancing those area (plus the ground is so much solid rock nothing would survive).

I have yet to decide exactly what I want to plant. I do know I’ll end up with some form of crabapple (I read on here that they are best for low/minimal maintenance) as well as a pear variety. It’s only purpose is for wildlife.

Where I am it’s solid timber. Mature timber. Therefore I’ll be cutting down trees to prep for this project. So with that said, I think I would like 10-12 trees. In a perfect world I would have more. So the number of trees will be dependent on the size of the opening I need to create. There is no laziness on my end. I have the ability and desire to make it happen. However I have to make sure my forestor has a way to make this work with the current TSI plans. The last thing I want to do is to jeopardize my enrollment in the plan and tax incentives that will come after this year.

So what size or is there a suggested size of opening needed per tree or per group of trees?

 

[chickenlittle]

Biggest thing is how much sun you can get on them. The more the better. Morning sun is nice for drying off the leaves.

Elevation is not as important as the topography around the trees for frost. Have the opening continue below the fruit trees far enough to allow cold air to drain away and not create a frost pocket around the trees. Getting a breeze across them could help prevent frost damage too.

Good luck.

 

[Yarg]

So I’m on the hunt for an exact location for the future mini orchard. Last time I asked here about location for the sake of some preliminary info I was told an area that was slightly higher in elevation to prevent being in a possible frost “zone” I believe was the term. Also if I remember correctly it was also to encourage better airflow to help with disease.

Basically to me this means don’t put it in a low lying spot on the property. So I’m looking at an area that is a very gradual slope currently. I can’t go high as thats where deer prefer to bed as where I’m enhancing those area (plus the ground is so much solid rock nothing would survive).

I have yet to decide exactly what I want to plant. I do know I’ll end up with some form of crabapple (I read on here that they are best for low/minimal maintenance) as well as a pear variety. It’s only purpose is for wildlife.

Where I am it’s solid timber. Mature timber. Therefore I’ll be cutting down trees to prep for this project. So with that said, I think I would like 10-12 trees. In a perfect world I would have more. So the number of trees will be dependent on the size of the opening I need to create. There is no laziness on my end. I have the ability and desire to make it happen. However I have to make sure my forestor has a way to make this work with the current TSI plans. The last thing I want to do is to jeopardize my enrollment in the plan and tax incentives that will come after this year.

So what size or is there a suggested size of opening needed per tree or per group of trees?

With 12 trees and either standard or semi dwarf rootstock like m111 or b118 you want 20-25 ft between trees so an example would be three rows of four trees which would be an area 75 ft by 50 ft for the trees. Then you would want enough clearing around the trees so they can have ideally full sun.I wouldn't want to leave any trees that might be a difficult fell later on..ie leaners into the orchard.. I'm just learning but I'm sure the pros will share

 

[Livesintrees]

Thanks for the replies. I envy a lot of guys that have natural clearings and actual tillable areas. I just want to be fully prepared with a plan for clearing and prep. I’m sure I’ll have more follow up threads when it comes to to start soil Amendments and such. Trees are a long term investment and I wanna cross as many t’s and dot as many i’s as I can. Been spending some time this weekend opening up the canopy above my food plot trail. Probably a dozen more trees over the next 2 days. And then reevaluate and cut more next season.

 

[JFK52]

I had a situation on my land where the apple trees were already there and probably 20 years old when I bought the land. It has also been planted in red pines. As the red pines grew, they started shading out the apple trees. When I did my every third row thinning I made sure that my friend running the harvester knew to open up the areas around all the apple trees in the red pines. He even took out some smaller oaks and cherry trees that were too close to the apple trees. Especially East and South exposures so they could get as much sunlight as possible. This helped these particular trees tremendously. Removing all the brush and mowing under the drip line helped also. I fertilize all my trees every spring. I would not have planted the trees where this person did. But to this day I have 28 mature apple trees on my land that are absolute deer magnets every fall.

 

[H20fwler]

Yep, getting them as much sun as you can will help tremendously. Cut the opening a little bigger than you think you will need.

 

[4wanderingeyes]

I agree with making the opening larger then what you need. You say now you want 12 trees, that will soon turn into, I just want to add this variety, and one of them, and one of those, and this keeps happening. I would just plan on about 1.5-2 acres, you should be good with 20 trees in that area. The other thing I recommend is taking a tour of a couple of the local apple orchards, find out what their growing, how far a part they are, and ask for some tips, most people who run orchards love talking apple trees.

What I found out is orchards tend to crowd the trees in more then recommend.

Another recommendation is to get your ph up somewhere in the middle 6’s, and get your P and K in the ground early so the soil has a chance to obsorb the minerals.

 

[Charman03]

As I’ve learned by trying to plant some clearing, sun, sun and more sun. You ideally want full sun. Can never have enough sun

 

[Livesintrees]

So for crabapple varieties....October-late season. What spacing is gerneally recommended between trees?

Thanks for the input thus far and I’m sure I’ll have more threads/questions as this project begins

 

[rocksnstumps]

^^^ yeah that. Have killed dozens of trees in the past trying to plant small openings or too close to edge of woods with only sun on one side. They do ok for couple years but after 3 or 4 winters were kaput. The surrounding trees push out growth much faster and just shade too much

 

[Livesintrees]

I appreciate the input. I’m doing some reading on as many other resources as I can. If the forestor turns around and says he can make a 2 acre clearing work then of course I’m going to go for it so I can get some size/more trees. So then 20-25 feet between trees is what I’ve read for the most part. I read on a few sites (information seems questionable as compared to the great roundup of guys on here) that with crabs you can go as close as 15 feet for wildlife trees.

So now at the risk of sounding stupid. Is there a design/layout or shape I guess would be the way to word it better then another? In other words square vs rectangular vs circle or something else.

 

[Livesintrees]

It really is a challenge trying to stay within the TSI plan while making improvements

 

[homerj]

Is there a design/layout or shape I guess would be the way to word it better then another? In other words square vs rectangular vs circle or something else.

As has previously stated, the more sun the better. Obviously, a layout that promotes sun exposure would be best. A long, narrow plot with southern exposure would provide more sun than a wide, round one with a northern exposure.

 

[rocksnstumps]

Agree with crabs that they will be a little smaller in general and could go more with 18-20 ft vs 20-25 spacing.

 

[Bowsnbucks]

Livesintrees - It depends on what crabs you want to plant. Since you have bears around there, I would assume you'd want bigger, woodier trees. In my own experience in north-central Pa. - with bears - I went with Antonovka, B-118, and MM-111 rootstocks on all our trees (crabs or regular apples). 25 ft. spacing is our minimum at camp. More sun and breeze that way, which helps keep diseases to a minimum.

As far as crab varieties, I like Chestnut, Kerr, All-Winter-Hangover, Winter Wildlife, and Wickson for later hangers. All-Winter-Hangover & Winter Wildlife crabs are from SLN. The others you can find at various nurseries.

For "regular" apples - if I had to pick only 2, they would be Liberty and Enterprise because of their disease resistant qualities. Enterprise is a late October / into November apple too.

When you make your clearing for the apple trees, look at the surrounding mature woods trees. Any diseased, damaged, or ones leaning toward your clearing should be removed. You don't want to plant your orchard and have woods trees falling into it wiping out what you've started. I would want a clear area around the whole fruit tree planting to allow more air flow and sun, and to keep falling woods limbs from damaging the fruit trees. I'd reduce the numbers of fruit trees if necessary so the set-up would be successful rather than crowd things.

Location - Ideally you want a south / southeast-facing opening to maximize sun exposure. I've read that an ideal set-up would be on a gently sloping, south-facing hillside, on the higher part of the hill to get the most breeze. As someone above said, you want some open area below the fruit trees so cold air can "drain away" on those frosty spring mornings.

 

[rocksnstumps]

BNB
Any idea how big the St Lawrence Winter variety crabs ultimately get? A lot of crabs on their own roots or say antonovka like St L uses are just not going to be that big a tree. I have some seedling crabs with 1" fruit grown out in the open that are just not that big a tree. Especially the ones I've kept to a single trunk. Some of the wild crabs that get all multi-stemmed do tend to spread out in all directions even though not all that tall and might benefit from more spacing. I have planted seedling crabs at about 20 ft spacing, some a little less and over a dozen yrs later still have a fair amount of room. Sure if you have an open field go ahead and widen things out but us fellas with space constraints might crowd a little from the optimal and I think that is ok if you stick with crabs vs a full grown apple variety that is gonna push 35, 40 ft or whatever.

 

[Bowsnbucks]

Rocksnstumps - Our oldest SLN trees are 6 years in the ground this spring, so that's all the timeline I have on them. But as of now, they're about 14 to 15 ft. tall and well-branched. SLN's Winter Wildlife crabs are our fastest growers and quickest to fruit, even though they're on Antonovka roots. They make bright red 1" crab apples that hang in clusters of 3 to 5. WW crabs have caught up to others crabs and apple trees planted a few years before them, and in some cases are taller then the earlier planted trees. I'd say limb spreaders are needed on the WW crab trees, because the branch angles are more acute and limbs more upright.

The All-Winter-Hangover crabs have better branch angles on their own, though I used a few limb spreaders on them in spots. AWH crabs make 1 1/2" crab apples that are singles, in pairs or clusters of 3 generally. It's a great crab tree, but it hasn't grown as fast as the WW crab has. They are all single trunk trees. We like both of these crabs.

We also have Centennial, Centurion, Dolgo, Trailman, Violi's, and Chestnut crabs from SLN on Antonovka roots. The one SLN Chestnut crab is our tallest tree at about 16 ft. tall.

Based on what I've seen so far, these 2 SLN varieties ( WW and AWH ) haven't become space hogs. The AWH crabs are wider than the WW crabs, but so far are about 8 ft. wide at the widest after 5 years of growing in the ground. Left to their own growth patterns, I don't know how big / wide they'll get. Antonovka roots are standard rootstocks and are supposed to grow trees to around 25 to 30 ft. tall, according to any printed info on Antonovka that I've seen. FWIW.

 

[Yarg]

Some info I was reading:

1. 
   Elevation in relation to the surrounding land – Cold air, frosts, and fogs settle in low areas, increasing the potential for frost and disease problems. For each 100-foot rise in elevation, expect a 5-10°F increase in spring night temperatures during a radiation frost/freeze event. The ideal site is an area of rolling land. Plant on slopes that are not too steep to be safely traversed with equipment. How far down a slope to set depends on the width of the valley at the base of the slope and on how well air can drain out of the valley to lower elevations. The tops of hills are not necessarily good sites as orchards located there are more vulnerable to advective freezes than the sides of hills. Also, soils on the tops of hills are frequently shallow due to erosion.
2. Direction of slope
   • South facing – Increased chances of southwest trunk injury during winter, earlier blooming.
   • North facing – Delayed bloom.
   • East facing – Reduced disease potential as the morning sun dries off the foliage early.
   • West facing – Intermediate between north and south.
3. Soils
   • Minimum rooting depth of 4-5 feet is desirable. (Trees on shallow soils will be more affected by drought and by root injury during extended severe cold spells.)
   • Good internal and surface water drainage characteristics. Apple trees will not tolerate waterlogged soils for extended periods during the growing season.
   • Soil pH and fertility can be adjusted and are not major considerations; however, highly fertile soils can cause excessive tree vigor and are, therefore, not desirable

 

[Yarg]

I spoke to an orchardist that's been around apples all his life that also hunts deer and he swore by the crabapple variety "crimson gold".. anybody familiar with this 1

 

[Bowsnbucks]

Yarg - The only "Crimson Gold" I've heard of is listed as an apple. I'll type what's in Adams County Nursery's catalog describing it. It's listed as a scab resistant variety.

"Crimson Gold is a new scab resistant cultivar harvesting the second week in September, just ahead of Golden Delicious. The fruit colors nicely with a near full red-orange blush on a yellow background, and the flesh is white, firm and juicy. Apples are medium in size with a sweet-tart flavor. Fruit has a storage life of up to eight months. The trees have medium vigor and are very productive, so they should be thinned accordingly."