Native habitat vs Food plots vs pellets

I was hoping this thread would generate good discussion. I'll try to respond to all the thoughts here.

I do believe he has better age structure than I do and that is very critical. He has more of the 5-10 yr olds. I have yet to see that many older bucks in that age class yet lots in the younger age classes that may have been born after the storm. I'll know more about age structure with time and that could be a big part of the difference.. While I haven't sampled native vegetation there is no question in my mind that my bucks spent the majority of the time this summer foraging on native stuff. There is no doubt in my mind that healthy Summer legumes coupled with high quality protein pellets provides higher quality nutrition that native plants in La. { Not so true in Mexico } I do not believe you can get full genetic expression from native habitat only in Central La.!

I may have lost a few deer from fence damage after the storm but I don't think material . Its a misnomer to think game fences are water tight. They are not .However after a time deer figure out the fence and you hardly ever see them near it.

I don't think my genetic potential has been affected in the least. However you can have the best genetics in the world and if nutrition is compromised you do not get full expression. Nutrition lifts the quality of all age classes. What I think is many of my bucks were on a lower nutritional plane because they lived on native habitat thus were compromised nutritionally vs. my neighbors deer which spent more time on clover.

I am convinced without a doubt that you can shift the epigenetic potential of antler expression over time IF you keep nutrition 100% 365 days a year . I think you start seeing the results after the first full cohort of fawns born after the first generation of does have been on peak nutrition their whole life. Maybe some places can get there naturally but for most it takes year round cultivars and protein pellets at strategic times to shift the bell curve of quality
Not doubting your assessments of the nutritional plain on what you have natively growing. But, I think to know for sure the plants don't equal the planted or poured feed, you'd have to measure it. Then, you'd have to take into account competition for food by livestock eating natively growing food. Are they outcompeting the deer for the best stuff? Do you have a group of bucks that have shown a decline in antler measurements from last year?
 
I agree with that part. I do not think that you can change A group of deer potential in one generation. What I’m saying is I do think you can change that potential overtime on a well run property. Sometimes the results of those studies are interpreted as that you have no impact, and I think that is wrong. I think Baker has shown that he has good potential on his unfenced portion, and inside his fence. It might be better inside the fence because you can control all variables, but it is not a fool’s errand to feed deer in an unfenced property
 
Here is one way to think about it in practical terms. A 6 yr old buck that is on perfect nutrition from before antler shed till hardened antlers the season after likely will fully express his genetic potential. As managers that the best we can do is provide peak nutrition to bring out whatever genetic potential a particular animal has. That any particular animal was born to a undernourished mother and led an undernourished life up until say 6 absolutely compromises his genetic potential but whatever potential he has can be fully realized the nutrition.

What the MSU study showed was that deer from poor coastal soils when moved to a higher nutritional plane in another part of the state over time matched the genetic potential of native deer from that area. What's fascinating is that if you keep the nutritional plane very high for any deer herd anywhere over time you will see improvement in antler expression . There are variables to this that can cause exceptions or slow this process down as we are talking about generational shifts.
 
I agree with that part. I do not think that you can change A group of deer potential in one generation. What I’m saying is I do think you can change that potential overtime on a well run property. Sometimes the results of those studies are interpreted as that you have no impact, and I think that is wrong. I think Baker has shown that he has good potential on his unfenced portion, and inside his fence. It might be better inside the fence because you can control all variables, but it is not a fool’s errand to feed deer in an unfenced property
It all boils down to what portion of the diet they are getting from your supplied feed is.
 
Not doubting your assessments of the nutritional plain on what you have natively growing. But, I think to know for sure the plants don't equal the planted or poured feed, you'd have to measure it. Then, you'd have to take into account competition for food by livestock eating natively growing food. Are they outcompeting the deer for the best stuff? Do you have a group of bucks that have shown a decline in antler measurements from last year?
All great questions. I kept the cows out of the woods this year so thats not an issue. They did graze the fields with our high impact short duration strategy. That process just seemed to turn on the clovers. I kept the cows out of the cow pea fields. I've taken some brix measurements of native forages in the past but nothing recently. I'm not that geeky anymore. The two absolute known bucks I have pictures of this year both look similar to last year one being an upper 170's 8 yr old the other a high 180's maybe 190 7 yr old. The second one may be very slightly smaller than last yr cause it appears he did not grow a nontypical point. I have no pictures of him and haven't seen him since July so not sure how he finished. Massive bull no matter. As I said at start of this thread all my observations are anecdotal.
 
I agree with that part. I do not think that you can change A group of deer potential in one generation. What I’m saying is I do think you can change that potential overtime on a well run property. Sometimes the results of those studies are interpreted as that you have no impact, and I think that is wrong. I think Baker has shown that he has good potential on his unfenced portion, and inside his fence. It might be better inside the fence because you can control all variables, but it is not a fool’s errand to feed deer in an unfenced property
I’ve yet to see anything from Baker or anyone else that suggests feeding is impactful on unfenced land with optimized native forage. Too many other variables to ever isolate that impact, unless you’re talking vast swaths big enough to essentially be “isolated” like in the SW or MX.
 
Here is an anecdotal observation of the differences between native habitat , summer food plots and protein pellet supplementation . This may be unique to my poor soils.

To frame it up I compare my Louisiana farm to my adjoining neighbors farm . Both are about the same size a bit over 1300 acres. Both have been intensively managed for decades. My property is about 70/30 hardwoods to pine while his is 90% hardwood. I'm mostly poor sandy loam while he is mostly red clay. We both do year round food plots and supplemental feed from February till end of August. I have done annual timber thinning for 30+ years. He has done essentially no timber thinning thus his forest land tends to be overstoried with very little understory. Because I thin timber annually when hurricane Laura hit 3 years ago I had profound extensive damage because the wind could whip thru the trees so much easier. I'm convinced a significant % of my deer population got killed in the storm. His damage was much less. He has a higher population of deer than me.As a result I have a giant thick jungle I am still trying to clean up . Both of us are high fenced thus good control over age structure.

Here is what I observed this summer. On my place I saw 1 bachelor group all summer. Hardly saw any bucks at all and no big ones. Very unusual. Rarely saw deer in the food plots even though had great summer production. Does and fawns everywhere but the bucks stayed out of sight. Pellet consumption was almost nonexistent till July. Then it picked up but was only strong for about a month . Cameras on me showed 2 bucks both known that were big...one upper 70's the other maybe 190. A good spattering of 'regular' bucks. My ratio is about 1/1 so I know I have a buck population equal to the number of does I was seeing.

On my neighbors property on any given afternoon we could slip around to his beautiful clover plots and every one held a bachelor group. His deer lived in the clover fields. His pellet consumption high all summer. His herd looked outstanding. At least 12 bucks over 170 with a good showing of 180's and a couple 190. Big fun!

My logic suggests this. I think my bucks mostly fed on native habitat all summer with modest time in the clover, peas etc. Modest pellet consumption. Neighbors deer simply don't have the native browse so they relied heavily on quality plots and pellets. This strongly suggests to me that native habitat...here at least...simply isn't as nutrient dense as planted legumes and protein pellets. On my property it seems unlikely for deer to reach their full potential on native browse yet when nutritional plane is elevated magic happens.

Of course I could be wrong on all this.

Maybe I am thinking about this wrong, but if the clovers and pellet feed were superior in nutrition, wouldn’t the bucks feed on them? Assuming pressure isn’t a problem on your place (I suspect it is not) don’t animals always eat the highest nutrition/most palatable food source? Surely the pellets are palatable and we all know clover is. I can’t imagine why they would stay in the woods and dine on inferior forage with that available.


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Maybe I am thinking about this wrong, but if the clovers and pellet feed were superior in nutrition, wouldn’t the bucks feed on them? Assuming pressure isn’t a problem on your place (I suspect it is not) don’t animals always eat the highest nutrition/most palatable food source? Surely the pellets are palatable and we all know clover is. I can’t imagine why they would stay in the woods and dine on inferior forage with that available.


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Could it be that this is just another flawed conventional wisdom? Could it be that there are highly palatable delicious weed species deer love but may not have the nutritional punch pellets and some cultivars have? That said, I'm sure the bucks fed on the summer plots and pellets, but it was just a compliment to the brush. They could be lazy, hang out in the woods foraging all around them before ambling to the fields after dark and already somewhat full. I'm just speculating.
 
I’ve yet to see anything from Baker or anyone else that suggests feeding is impactful on unfenced land with optimized native forage. Too many other variables to ever isolate that impact, unless you’re talking vast swaths big enough to essentially be “isolated” like in the SW or MX.
Some of his pics are unfenced. Unless I have misunderstood him.
 
I’ve yet to see anything from Baker or anyone else that suggests feeding is impactful on unfenced land with optimized native forage. Too many other variables to ever isolate that impact, unless you’re talking vast swaths big enough to essentially be “isolated” like in the SW or MX.
Deer roam, but they don’t have cars. If you know your neighbors you can definitely have resident deer on not huge parcels.
 
Some of his pics are unfenced. Unless I have misunderstood him.
I challenge anyone on earth to tell if the pic I just posted came from a fenced pasture or unfenced. We have both. I could post 20 pics...10 from each pasture and no-one could tell the difference.
 
Maybe I am thinking about this wrong, but if the clovers and pellet feed were superior in nutrition, wouldn’t the bucks feed on them? Assuming pressure isn’t a problem on your place (I suspect it is not) don’t animals always eat the highest nutrition/most palatable food source? Surely the pellets are palatable and we all know clover is. I can’t imagine why they would stay in the woods and dine on inferior forage with that available.


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Same reason I pop open a coke and eat potatoe chips and don’t spend 45 minutes cooking a healthy dinner I suppose.
 
I’ve yet to see anything from Baker or anyone else that suggests feeding is impactful on unfenced land with optimized native forage. Too many other variables to ever isolate that impact, unless you’re talking vast swaths big enough to essentially be “isolated” like in the SW or MX.
See bakers post
 
I think deer are lazy by nature. If a palatable food source is readily available, I think they utilize it to a greater extent than - say - eating green briars. On many occassions, I have seen deer feed for 30 or 40 minutes in a wheat/clover plot. If a deer needs to eat 8 or 10 lbs of food in a day, how long does it take where the feeding is easy like a food plot?
 
I challenge anyone on earth to tell if the pic I just posted came from a fenced pasture or unfenced. We have both. I could post 20 pics...10 from each pasture and no-one could tell the difference.

The pic in the other thread?
 
I challenge anyone on earth to tell if the pic I just posted came from a fenced pasture or unfenced. We have both. I could post 20 pics...10 from each pasture and no-one could tell the difference.
I don’t want to speak for him but I think he could mean on average to smaller sized properties is the juice worth the squeeze? I said in the other thread, on smaller (sub 1000- ish acre) properties feeding should be thought of as attraction over nutrition to me. Granted other variables like your neighborhood could influence that dynamic. In my mind, you could feed your deer a steady diet of anabolic steroids but if they aren’t reaching maturity you’ve simple enriched the drug dealer. I don’t think for most of us mortals nutrition is our lowest hole, it’s age. So while I love the idea of providing my herd what its needs (preferably in native or planted forage) we are probably better off trying to get our bucks to maturity.
 
Even in the deep south, I have witnessed bucks growing to B&C caliber consistently over years on nothing but native forage and age.
 
Some of his pics are unfenced. Unless I have misunderstood him.
On a ranch tens of thousands of acres in size in Mexico. That doesn’t play in the Deep South. I love the pictures as much as anyone, but no conclusions relevant to me may be drawn from them.
 
On a ranch tens of thousands of acres in size in Mexico. That doesn’t play in the Deep South. I love the pictures as much as anyone, but no conclusions relevant to me may be drawn from them.
The low fenced pasture is only 15,000 acres 😜 Your point is appropriate in that if you are feeding on smaller properties be prepared that what you feeding may be shot a long ways away
 
The low fenced pasture is only 15,000 acres 😜 Your point is appropriate in that if you are feeding on smaller properties be prepared that what you feeding may be shot a long ways away
You’re still my favorite account on YouTube! I respect and admire what you do.

Your post prompted me to pose a fun hypothetical: @omicron1792 and @SwampCat if you believe in the value of supplemental feed so much, do you buy feed and feeders and give to your neighbors? After all, it’s about herd health and not attraction…
 
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