My response to the brilliant folks at qdma site

[Four Seasons]

EHD?

No, the payments are for sick/dying deer. There were some pretty huge checks given to deer farmers from the government for their sick deer.

 

[Ben.MN/WI]

CWD. The deer/elk get CWD and the owners can get a check from the government.

 

[Baker]

In the spirit of open dialogue this is what perplexes me. This with a confession that CWD is not a soap box matter to me.

Much of the research on all aspects of deer come from our universities. Auburn and Mississippi State most notably and I'd suspect others are involved also. Those universities make extensive use of deer pens. Ceasar Kleburg Wildlife Research, a highly respect research institution, works extensively with both the Faith and Commanche Ranch for all sorts of studies. Pens of various sizes are utilized . I know of one ongoing study that uses numerous 100 acre pens and both ranches have smaller penned operations as well. The above mentioned universities have over time seeded many of the commercial breeding operations around the country with deer from their pens.

So if science is so convinced deer pens are the culprit in CWD why do the research facilities still make use of deer pens and transfer deer around?

 

[yoderjac]

In the spirit of open dialogue this is what perplexes me. This with a confession that CWD is not a soap box matter to me.

Much of the research on all aspects of deer come from our universities. Auburn and Mississippi State most notably and I'd suspect others are involved also. Those universities make extensive use of deer pens. Ceasar Kleburg Wildlife Research, a highly respect research institution, works extensively with both the Faith and Commanche Ranch for all sorts of studies. Pens of various sizes are utilized . I know of one ongoing study that uses numerous 100 acre pens and both ranches have smaller penned operations as well. The above mentioned universities have over time seeded many of the commercial breeding operations around the country with deer from their pens.

So if science is so convinced deer pens are the culprit in CWD why do the research facilities still make use of deer pens and transfer deer around?

Baker,

There are risks associated with most research. Clearly transporting deer for research can be one of them. Responsible researchers and commercial operations do everything they can to mitigate that risk. I think much of the epidemiological issues occurred with either penned operations transferring deer from affected areas. Some of this could have occurred before the risks were well known, but you and I both know in the commercial world you have circumspect and shady operators who will put profit above safety. I think many states that are cracking down on deer penned operations are not totally eliminating them but instead increasing the regulation regime. Some may be raising the bar higher for new entrants to discourage it until more is better understood.

I would make the analogy to using point source minerals. Any point source attractant increases the potential for spread of some diseases by the increase of face to face contact beyond normal grooming. One of the best protocols for estimating deer populations is the FWRC protocol that uses baited point source attractants. So, if you know there is some level of risk (my guess is reasonably small) for increased disease spread, but also realize that the data collected during the survey considerably improves your QDM decision making, what do you do? You make a risk/reward decision and do whatever you can to mitigate the risk.

I experienced this myself. I knew there was no solid evidence to support benefit of mineral supplementation to free ranging deer so that was not considered. However, I wanted to get an inventory of mature bucks to establish harvest goals and they were avoiding cameras without bait because of the flash (pre black flash). I realized there was a disease spread risk, but I decided the reward outweighed the risk and proceeded to put in mineral/salt licks with cameras. In the end, the deer did not cooperate and I was able to find better ways to get the inventory data, so I discontinued use. The risk/reward balance changed.

University and penned deer studies do play an important role in understanding deer. They can't be used for everything but we've learned a lot that helps us manage deer from them.

Thanks,

jack

 

[Four Seasons]

Where did you read th

CWD. The deer/elk get CWD and the owners can get a check from the government.

is crap? If a farm gets CWD they are shut down from moving animals for 5 years. Thats in every state. If a state makes the choice to depopulate a farmers herd so they can look for something then they very well should get a cgeck for the fair value of those animals. The farmer did not ask for them to kill his animals for nothing. Also dont fool yourself thinking the state pays what the value of said animals are worth. If they get paid a quarter of a million you can bet you land they were worth double that in the deer industry.

You think a farmer should not be reimbursed for animals killed by the states pet wolves in those states.

 

[kabic]

If the state took property away from me I would expect some kind of compensation.

 

[Tree Spud]

Where did you read th

is crap? If a farm gets CWD they are shut down from moving animals for 5 years. Thats in every state. If a state makes the choice to depopulate a farmers herd so they can look for something then they very well should get a cgeck for the fair value of those animals. The farmer did not ask for them to kill his animals for nothing. Also dont fool yourself thinking the state pays what the value of said animals are worth. If they get paid a quarter of a million you can bet you land they were worth double that in the deer industry.

You think a farmer should not be reimbursed for animals killed by the states pet wolves in those states.

If the state took property away from me I would expect some kind of compensation.

No! I don't get govt handouts when a new competitor starts up and impacts my business. I don't get govt compensation when we don't hit sales or profit targets, or when a machine fails, or when a customer fails to pay their bills. I don't get payments from the govt to leave warehouse space or machines idle either.

Unless I buy very expensive insurance, the business risk I take is 100% my own.

 

[kabic]

There is a difference in getting handouts and taking property. If you want to take someone's property you better pay for it....otherwise don't take it.

 

[Tree Spud]

There is a difference in getting handouts and taking property. If you want to take someone's property you better pay for it....otherwise don't take it.

There is no difference in your example as no one's property is being taken. If a cow is attacked by an animal, killed by a vehicle, or dies of disease, that is a business risk.

And by the way, the govt doesn't compensate anybody for losses, the tax payers do.

 

[kabic]

When the government comes in and says you have to kill your deer herd, they are taking your property. Not much different than eminent domain.

If the government came in and destroyed goods in your warehouse you would want compensation.

 

[kabic]

I'm not really a fan of deer farms, though I do take the kids down to the city park to the deer pen.

I just don't like the government using eminent domain to take property.

Regulate the deer farms...require double fencing. ..test the deer ...don't let them transfer any if they find CWD. I'm sure the farms could still make money on semen egg etc even if a deer has CWD.

 

[Tree Spud]

When the government comes in and says you have to kill your deer herd, they are taking your property. Not much different than eminent domain.

If the government came in and destroyed goods in your warehouse you would want compensation.

I will start with a :) as you clearly are speaking emotionally.

You should know that as a Wisconsin resident that farmers are incredibly compensated for deer crop damage. have been for many years before CWD.

Please identify where farmers were forced to kill deer and not compensated? They are paid real $$ for killing deer through many programs.

If the govt came in and destroyed/took property in my warehouse, I would most likely be in handcuffs and my family was taken away to concentration camps. That's what Hilter, Stalin, and all the other despots did over the centuries ...

What property are you trying to protect ... the corn or the cow?

Farmers want to get paid to kill deer who eat their crops, then complain when predators are present that kill the animals that eat their corn ... they can't have it both ways.

If you own a business, please advise, as you might understand what the term "Property" or owned insurable asset means ...

 

[Four Seasons]

Just what happens now. For years the states listened to the...Sky is falling and all the deer are going to die..groups that used it for their agenda to shut down high fence because it is so big and growing yearly. Problem is that when the states listened they thought it best to kill 100"s of deer on a farm just because 1 had CWD...That cost them millions before they finally smartened up like in todays world and we live thru CWD. Live testing and disposing of positive animals.
CWD is now being found to be just like Scrapies and we are finding genetic traits in the positive animals. The sheep people bred the Scrapies out of their industry and deer farms can now do the same.
Question is..Is it worth all this time and money when the disease has proven itself to be all but harmless. States like Wisconsin have had it longer than all other states and they have the highest positive rates yet they now have more deer then ever in their population and they continue to grow mature animals and make the record books year after year.

 

[yoderjac]

Kabic and Tree Spud,

This is really a political decision. Folks can cite examples on both sides. If you are personally quarantined because of a disease, you are not compensated for your time. We have collectively decided for some diseases the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few. Similarly, at one point we decided that for the good of the collective ensuring ground was available for production when needed and ensuring the food supply does not have wild swings, we passed the farm bill. There is always a line to draw between the rights of the individual and the welfare of the collective. No one in this country takes 100% risk in business. We have something called bankruptcy. It encourages folks to take business risk because in the end, there are limits to your losses.

It doesn't matter if we are talking about CWD or the farm bill or bankruptcy laws, for FDIC insurance or something else. Folks on both sides need to realize there is another side to the story.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[wiscwhip]

Lots of deer farmer rhetoric being tossed around in this thread as well as that from the opposite side of the fence, but you still haven't answered the question I asked earlier on the bottom of page 2. ???

 

[Four Seasons]

I live north of the WI CWD hotzone, and I have my own opinions on the way it got here, how it is spread, and what, if anything it will eventually do to deer populations and even humans, but that is for another post altogether. My question to you is directly related to the above post. Would you knowingly kill and then feed CWD infected deer to yourself, your children or significant other, and other family members, year after year, given that, as you put it "CWD has never harmed a human.", yet in another post you say the evidence or lack of it, is inconclusive? Are you willing to fully embrace that chance with the well being of your family?

Yes i would knowingly kill a whitetail deer in a hotzone year after year and have it tested before i fed it to my family or ate it myself. Just as most would. On another front there have been many that had posted on the old site that they have killed and ate untested deer for over 10 years taken in the same hot zone you speak of? They also say they have to kill 15-20 more deer a year off their property since CWD came to town? Yes more animals. Which you know yourself has been proven when your state tried to decimate the herd way back when. Even with a 40-50% positive herd and they are still growing in numbers? That is proven fact. Now if you can show 1 case where the CWD prion has been a proven link to any health problems in humans after 50 plus years of service i would love to read it?

 

[yoderjac]

Yes i would knowingly kill a whitetail deer in a hotzone year after year and have it tested before i fed it to my family or ate it myself. Just as most would. On another front there have been many that had posted on the old site that they have killed and ate untested deer for over 10 years taken in the same hot zone you speak of? They also say they have to kill 15-20 more deer a year off their property since CWD came to town? Yes more animals. Which you know yourself has been proven when your state tried to decimate the herd way back when. Even with a 40-50% positive herd and they are still growing in numbers? That is proven fact. Now if you can show 1 case where the CWD prion has been a proven link to any health problems in humans after 50 plus years of service i would love to read it?

So, if I understand the convoluted response you are saying that you would not knowingly feed CWD infected deer to your family. Unless something has been found recently, there is no proven causal relationship between CWD exposure and known human disease. As I recall, there were several cases of the rare CJD that occurred in folks that had exposure to CWD. Since transmission vectors are not completely understood, there was no proven relationship.

But here is the thing: There is no proven causal relationship yet you would have deer tested and presumably not feed them to your family if they test positive. You demonstrate prudent cautious behavior when unproven potential relationships are concerns to the medical professionals. Yet, you find folly with others who demonstrate prudent cautious behavior.

Here is another question. Can disease have a negative impact on a population without causing death? Most disease avoid causing death at all and avoid it at least until it has had time to be transmitted to another. Mass death to a population would work against the interests of a disease. An effective disease wants its host to propagate. Population dynamics and how they relate to an individual disease are only a small part of the story.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[Four Seasons]

So, if I understand the convoluted response you are saying that you would not knowingly feed CWD infected deer to your family. Unless something has been found recently, there is no proven causal relationship between CWD exposure and known human disease. As I recall, there were several cases of the rare CJD that occurred in folks that had exposure to CWD. Since transmission vectors are not completely understood, there was no proven relationship.

But here is the thing: There is no proven causal relationship yet you would have deer tested and presumably not feed them to your family if they test positive. You demonstrate prudent cautious behavior when unproven potential relationships are concerns to the medical professionals. Yet, you find folly with others who demonstrate prudent cautious behavior.

Here is another question. Can disease have a negative impact on a population without causing death? Most disease avoid causing death at all and avoid it at least until it has had time to be transmitted to another. Mass death to a population would work against the interests of a disease. An effective disease wants its host to propagate. Population dynamics and how they relate to an individual disease are only a small part of the story.

Thanks,

Jack

Well of course i would get it tested if i would live in a hot zone just to be on the safe side. There are way to many deer out there to have to feed one of the ones that are positive. I will tell you that i have killed deer every year the last 40 years and have had CWD in our state for 10 plus of those years and i have never had a deer tested.
Your second question has proven itself time in and time out. We were told it would wipe out herds..Yes? So tell me about Wind Cave Elk herd? Why did they have to lower fences to let animals out because of over population? Twice! We were told not to eat CWD positive animals because the white coats say..There has never been human harm but..Who Knows. Yes? So tell me why if there was a chance of harm to humans would they lower those fences on a 40% plus rate of infected CWD positive Elk to be released into a place to be hunted,Killed and consumed by human hunters? Why would states use Elk relocation programs from CWD positive states to take Elk from..Untested..To repopulate another state.. Arkansas ring a bell for ya? Way to much double talk by some and then proven by states doing just the other. CWD has never done any of the carnage that we were led to believe by those that were agenda driven. Its now gone as far as the Federal Govt has pulled most all testing monies because of the billions that have been wasted chasing a harmless ghost. All one has to do is look and see what CWD has not done over the last 50 years to be able to see what it wont do the next 50.

 

[wiscwhip]

The only "double talk" I see here is your deer farmer rhetoric of "CWD is harmless, you should all be fine with it", yet YOU will not eat a positively infected animal, or feed it to your family, therefore you obviously feel that there may be some risk of it being harmful and stated in the above post that you would indeed test it and not consume it if it were found positive. Your hypocrisy has been exposed and your credibility on this subject is trash as far as I am concerned. You can't have it both ways.......... By the way, please STOP telling people that are affected by this disease in their areas it is completely harmless if you do not believe it yourself.:rolleyes: I am done here, moving on.

 

[Four Seasons]

The only "double talk" I see here is your deer farmer rhetoric of "CWD is harmless, you should all be fine with it", yet YOU will not eat a positively infected animal, or feed it to your family, therefore you obviously feel that there may be some risk of it being harmful and stated in the above post that you would indeed test it and not consume it if it were found positive. Your hypocrisy has been exposed and your credibility on this subject is trash as far as I am concerned. You can't have it both ways.......... By the way, please STOP telling people that are affected by this disease in their areas it is completely harmless if you do not believe it yourself.:rolleyes: I am done here, moving on.

Riiight...You have been asked 3 times to show 1 case of any harm CWD has caused to any herd in any state or any person in this world? You cant do it. That is fact. 100% real life fact. Everything you have been told( And looks like your one of the few that believe) that CWD was going to do has never happened. 50 plus years..Never happened. Our state in affected by this disease. Have been for over 10 years. Nothing has changed here. The state only test a few each year and hunters do not send out deer to be tested. The only reason people get deer tested is because of the scare they put into people. You think all the hunters in Arkansas that have now just found out that they have had a 50% positive herd for years and never had a deer tested will now get all their deer tested? I doubt it. Some will,which is fine but now will the state give you another tag to go shoot another one to see if that one is positive? And Another? And Another? I would guess not.
If you ever come up with some real life deer kill off or human sickness because of CWD Prion's please feel free to enlighten everyone.