My response to the brilliant folks at qdma site

[jsasker007]

I would have to agree with four seasons. Reality is not the picture the dnr paints to serve whatever their agenda may be. The mn dnr is asleep at the wheel in my opinion.

 

[yoderjac]

CWD is a spongiform disease related to prions. Its spread is not well understood in nature. Epidemiology suggest that most of the spread came from penned deer farms transporting deer. Instead of a natural distribution, there were hotspots popping up far from the initial outbreak area. CWD is closely related to a human disease called CJD. While there are no documented cases of interspecies transfer that have been confirmed as far as I know, that is still a concern. While different approaches of attempting to limit the disease spread may be argued, it is important to manage this. It goes beyond deer and trophy hunting and I understand that trophy hunters my object to some of the approaches being implemented.

I think sometimes we see the world through our own lens created by our personal interests. Trying to see past that and understand a balance addresses broader interests is not always easy for us.

Thanks

Jack

 

[jsasker007]

I guess that would be a good reason to stop having deer penned up? Introduce cwd and they all die because they are NOT able to leave.

 

[yoderjac]

I guess that would be a good reason to stop having deer penned up? Introduce cwd and they all die because they are NOT able to leave.

I'm not sure CWD works quite like that. I believe one of the reasons penned deer were so susceptible to it was the feed. Spongiform diseases can be spread through brain and spine tissue. I think at one point, they were actually using deer parts in deer feed. I think the other issue was deer being bought and sold and transported across the country. Whether the disease was spread to new areas by the occasional deer escaping the pen to their is some disease vector transmitted through the fence, the epidemiology suggests outbreaks occurred near deer pen operations.

I think many states have strengthened regulations to curtail penned operations and have even gone farther. In VA, they just outlawed the use of deer urine for hunting.

Thanks,

jack

 

[Four Seasons]

Not sure what stuff you guys are reading but its far from the truth. You say its only penned deer yet CWD is in a pile of states that have never had a pen. You talk like its Mad Cow..Well if CWD was really that bad and the prion is found in Corn and Alfalfa then how come those products have not been banned from being harvested and sold from CWD positive states? Why are these crops still being sold in the states and even other countries? Why is it that a guy from Ny could very well be buying CWD positive corn right off the shelves of his local Tractor Supply store that was harvested in Say a Hot zone of Wisconsin and then fed to his animals in Ny?
You few again always point to the pen when there are so many much faster and more used vectors. This Urine thing is one of the biggest jokes, There has never been a deer tested and found to have CWD prions in their urine. Even 100% proven Brain and Node tested positive whitetails still did not have prions in their urine. Just because someone can take a syringe and inject the Prions into their urine and then inject that into a mouse to make that mouse positive does not mean that it happens in the real world. In Fact..Its been proven 100's of times to be just the other!

 

[yoderjac]

Perhaps you are referring ot different posts. I suggested that the epidemiology suggest the outbreak did not just spread from one localized area outward, but had hot spots is geographically separated area that popped up around penned operations. That suggests penned deer are a factor in how the disease was spread. I never suggested that it does not spread from deer to deer in the wild, it obviously does.

Also, I didn't suggest that corn or alfalfa was a source for the prion. I think one of the largest problems is that the disease vectors for tis disease are not well understood. Professionals in states that do not have a severe outbreak are being very cautious.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[Four Seasons]

LOL...Dont believe to much of what you read. Let me ask you...There is a state that had CWD years ago..Like 10-12 years ago. It came from a Rehabber that got their fawns from the state DEC..Also a Taxidermist. So there were cases on both sides with neither knowing where it came from. So this same state takes all road killed...UNTESTED deer and puts them on a compost pile that the state uses for flower beds at every rest area up and down its biggest thruway, Also open the pile for farmers to take what they like to spread on their crop fields. Does this sound like a state that is very cautious?
You did not have to suggest that Corn and Alfalfa are big time carriers or vectors on the CWD prion because its a proven Fact.

 

[Baker]

I'm not sure CWD works quite like that. I believe one of the reasons penned deer were so susceptible to it was the feed. Spongiform diseases can be spread through brain and spine tissue. I think at one point, they were actually using deer parts in deer feed. I think the other issue was deer being bought and sold and transported across the country. Whether the disease was spread to new areas by the occasional deer escaping the pen to their is some disease vector transmitted through the fence, the epidemiology suggests outbreaks occurred near deer pen operations.

I think many states have strengthened regulations to curtail penned operations and have even gone farther. In VA, they just outlawed the use of deer urine for hunting.

Thanks,

jack

Jack, I'm not going to get into the CWD debate because it seems to me there is more unknown than known with a lot of emotion dictating premature decisions . What I will challenge though is the idea that breeders feeding deer feed containing deer parts is a problem. While I am not a deer breeder I know many of the best in the business and I don't know any of them that have ever used such feed. Contrarily, it is my opinion that the breeders know more about animal nutrition and health and are on the leading edge on such matters.

When I had a recent conversation with Brian Murphy expressing my displeasure with QDMA I asked him this pointed question: Have they ever found a confirmed dead deer in the wild that died from CWD. Not a deer killed by car, gun, etc. then tested but found dead and tested. The answer is NO. Interesting I think.

While I have a cautious eye cast on the CWD matter it is not something I'm concerned about . Curiously as we know they are working feverishly to develop a ..cure, antidote, preventative vaccine,....and the most likely way to inoculate is thru feed stations.

 

[yoderjac]

Baker,

I don't know if penned operations using feed with deer parts is a problem. I know it was suspected. There are several concerns here that I think time may deal with. One is the similarity of CWD to CJD. I know there were some cases where a jump was suspected but none that I know of that was confirmed. The more time that passes with no such confirmed cases the better and the more the fear level is reduced. Without a better under standing of both CWD and CJD and the disease there is a lot of fear. CJD is a very serious human disease but moves very slowly. We have not seen any epidemics. CWD does show faster spread. The real issue here is that because of CJD, the CWD issue is not simply a deer management problem.

Like many diseases, there is an epidemic when it hits a new population. Eventually it balances out. Once this happens, it becomes a much smaller issue from a deer management perspective. I suspect CWD will follow a similar path to EHD in many areas. The biggest concern from a deer management issue is in areas that don't have the disease. This is where the focus on penned operations and transporting deer parts and urine and such comes in. An epidemiologic view suggest that penned operations were the key to it moving to new distant locations. States that don't have it want to do all they can to avoid it.

I'm not sure there is much of a debate on CWD itself except among the uninformed. The debate is more about what the proper response should be. Some focus purely on deer. Some focus on the bigger picture of disease and interspecies transfer potential. Some have personal agendas regarding how they want to see deer managed (increased - many hunters, decreases - insurance companies, some Ag, etc.) and use CWD to try to justify their position. I doubt we will ever see a cure, antidote, preventative vaccine for it or an effective way to a apply it to wild populations if we did.

I find it to be a much more complex issue than many seem to find it.

Thanks,

jack

 

[Baker]

Agree on the complexities especially when you add the potential for infecting humans [ i.e. mad cow ] , emotional responses, incomplete science, politics, diverse agendas, need to blame, economics, ...and the list goes on. I have a very poorly developed panic response and tend to deal with things when they enter my sphere of influence.

 

[yoderjac]

Agree on the complexities especially when you add the potential for infecting humans [ i.e. mad cow ] , emotional responses, incomplete science, politics, diverse agendas, need to blame, economics, ...and the list goes on. I have a very poorly developed panic response and tend to deal with things when they enter my sphere of influence.

Yep, maybe my trust factor is too high. I tend to trust that most professionals (at least in the science community) have the best of intentions and operate on the best information available. While that may not always be the case when politics enters the seen and special interests on all sides bend the data to fit their agendas, I tend to give our professionals the benefit of the doubt.

I can't really see all that goes on in other states, but I spend time with our department biologists and game wardens and at the core, they are good folks trying to do the job the best they can. In our state, there is a pretty good process for establishing a deer management plan that solicits inputs from all camps. There will always be some camps unhappy with the decision.

I have to laugh at some of the things that upset folks. There are some folks here upset they outlawed the use of deer urine. Year ago, some biologist friends were studying mock scrapes with trail cameras. They found that when the created the scrap by just pissing in it themselves, it was visited and used just as much by deer as when they used deer urine.

Thanks,

jack

 

[Four Seasons]

Its been precieved complex for over 50 years now. With no proven harm to animal or human. CWD and EHD cant even be put in the same sentence. You keep using pen deer as your go to but in the real world its the ones who test is the one that finds. When you have states like Illiy that has had 500 plus cases of wild CWD but no pen CWD and all the other states with CWD that have never had a pen built in them it kinda points to the wild deer slamming the pen deer with the disease. When you can have a bird fly over from miles away and infect your property then that points in the same direction. There are so many that point fingers and use CWD for their agenda it becomes a mute point.
But what we do know for a fact is that CWD is less of a killer of whitetails then any other way a whitetail can die and CWD has never harmed a human. Sounds like a bunch of people chasing a harmless ghost.

 

[yoderjac]

Its been precieved complex for over 50 years now. With no proven harm to animal or human. CWD and EHD cant even be put in the same sentence. You keep using pen deer as your go to but in the real world its the ones who test is the one that finds. When you have states like Illiy that has had 500 plus cases of wild CWD but no pen CWD and all the other states with CWD that have never had a pen built in them it kinda points to the wild deer slamming the pen deer with the disease. When you can have a bird fly over from miles away and infect your property then that points in the same direction. There are so many that point fingers and use CWD for their agenda it becomes a mute point.
But what we do know for a fact is that CWD is less of a killer of whitetails then any other way a whitetail can die and CWD has never harmed a human. Sounds like a bunch of people chasing a harmless ghost.

Sounds to me like an agenda trying to surround itself with supporting information. I simply pointed out that the epidemiology suggests transfer of deer from affected locations to penned operations in non-infected areas was a key to the distribution of the disease. That is not even a debate in the science any more. Would have CWD crossed the Mississippi anyway through some other means? Quite possible. We will never know.

The only point I'm making is that CWD is a valid concern. How many centuries was ebola related disease present in other species before it made the jump? I doubt anyone knows. There is a big difference between a concern and a panic. I don't think CWD is a reason to panic, but it is a valid concern and an important consideration when managing deer.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[buckvelvet]

 

[yoderjac]

I believe there was a good reason John said CWD and deer farming were probably not the best topics to discuss back when he started this site.

Stu,

I haven't been around that long...enlighten me.

Thanks,

jack

 

[wiscwhip]

Its been precieved complex for over 50 years now. With no proven harm to animal or human. CWD and EHD cant even be put in the same sentence. You keep using pen deer as your go to but in the real world its the ones who test is the one that finds. When you have states like Illiy that has had 500 plus cases of wild CWD but no pen CWD and all the other states with CWD that have never had a pen built in them it kinda points to the wild deer slamming the pen deer with the disease. When you can have a bird fly over from miles away and infect your property then that points in the same direction. There are so many that point fingers and use CWD for their agenda it becomes a mute point.
But what we do know for a fact is that CWD is less of a killer of whitetails then any other way a whitetail can die and CWD has never harmed a human. Sounds like a bunch of people chasing a harmless ghost.

I live north of the WI CWD hotzone, and I have my own opinions on the way it got here, how it is spread, and what, if anything it will eventually do to deer populations and even humans, but that is for another post altogether. My question to you is directly related to the above post. Would you knowingly kill and then feed CWD infected deer to yourself, your children or significant other, and other family members, year after year, given that, as you put it "CWD has never harmed a human.", yet in another post you say the evidence or lack of it, is inconclusive? Are you willing to fully embrace that chance with the well being of your family?

 

[UP Powers]

I promise I won't use the word Antler Mill. :)

 

[bueller]

Stu,

I haven't been around that long...enlighten me.

Thanks,

jack

Threads regarding CWD, deer farms, politics, and probably another topic or two that I'm missing have a strong tendency to take a turn for the worst at some point.

 

[buckvelvet]

I went shed hunting at a private game ranch this past spring because someone invited me and who wouldn't want to find huge sheds? I didn't hunt there, stop looking at me funny. Come on guys, we still friends?

 

[wiscwhip]

Those penned deer must be pretty bada$$ed if they shed their skull plates along with the antlers and don't see any ill affects..........;)