My multi year battle with pigweed story:

[SD51555]

Thank you for the response SD!
I had no idea a seed can feel out grazing pressure, surrounding nutrients or anything more than moisture and temperature but that still leaves me with the same question. The seed landed where it landed, I can't imagine it would wait in the soil until the surrounding PH/ nutrients etc change years later, but I know little about the topic to be honest. The plant that made the seed produced it in ideal enough conditions to make it to reproduction stage I would think as soon as it was seasonably warm enough and got enough moisture to sprout it would throw a radical and either establish a root in the soil or either dry out or get shaded out before it got big enough. This stuff confuses me as you can tell lol

I spent a winter reading everything I could find on weeds. I think I went through nearly ten books, and half of them were summaries of studies done in Asia. I learned a lot. What it all boils down to is 'resistance to germination.'

Natural plant seeds all have a built in mechanism, to one degree or another, that they purposely don't germinate. A great example is thistle. You can get miles from any living thistle, and if you go and kill the sod, odds are good thistle will be one of the things that comes up. This is how nature survives droughts, floods, fires, early greenups and late frosts. Until a specific organic acid is released, many weed seeds won't germinate. Tillage and chemical death set off an avalanche of change in the organic acid makeup of the soil, and it brings things to life you never knew you had, and likely wish you never did.

Some seeds need fire to open up. Some need to actually pass through the gut of a bird or large animal to break down the seed coat. Dogwood and apple are good examples of that. Do you know that a Black Capped Chickadee can eat and crap out a dogwood seed in 40 minutes? Did you know their average disperal range from consumption to pooping is under 100 yards? True stuff. That's how I picked the locations of my protected dogwoods, and the follow up timber releasing I did. I injected the sunlight, and gave the birds about 5000 options within 30 yards of there to pop a squat and deposit that now viable seed into a brush pile where deer couldn't easily browse it off once it started growing.

 

[Troubles Trees]

I spent a winter reading everything I could find on weeds. I think I went through nearly ten books, and half of them were summaries of studies done in Asia. I learned a lot. What it all boils down to is 'resistance to germination.'

Natural plant seeds all have a built in mechanism, to one degree or another, that they purposely don't germinate. A great example is thistle. You can get miles from any living thistle, and if you go and kill the sod, odds are good thistle will be one of the things that comes up. This is how nature survives droughts, floods, fires, early greenups and late frosts. Until a specific organic acid is released, many weed seeds won't germinate. Tillage and chemical death set off an avalanche of change in the organic acid makeup of the soil, and it brings things to life you never knew you had, and likely wish you never did.

Some seeds need fire to open up. Some need to actually pass through the gut of a bird or large animal to break down the seed coat. Dogwood and apple are good examples of that. Do you know that a Black Capped Chickadee can eat and crap out a dogwood seed in 40 minutes? Did you know their average disperal range from consumption to pooping is under 100 yards? True stuff. That's how I picked the locations of my protected dogwoods, and the follow up timber releasing I did. I injected the sunlight, and gave the birds about 5000 options within 30 yards of there to pop a squat and deposit that now viable seed into a brush pile where deer couldn't easily browse it off once it started growing.

Great info SD, Thank you sir! Very interesting bud.

 

[S.T.Fanatic]

Thank you for the response SD!
I had no idea a seed can feel out grazing pressure, surrounding nutrients or anything more than moisture and temperature but that still leaves me with the same question. The seed landed where it landed, I can't imagine it would wait in the soil until the surrounding PH/ nutrients etc change years later, but I know little about the topic to be honest. The plant that made the seed produced it in ideal enough conditions to make it to reproduction stage I would think as soon as it was seasonably warm enough and got enough moisture to sprout it would throw a radical and either establish a root in the soil or either dry out or get shaded out before it got big enough. This stuff confuses me as you can tell lol

It happens every year. Certain environmental conditions favor certain plant species over others. Around here I could use wild cucumber as an example. Two years ago they were EVERYWHERE, last year less prevalent, and this year almost non existent. If you pay attention to the plant species growing in road ditches from year to year you will start to notice what he is talking about.

Like I mentioned, Last year my diversity plot had a pretty heavy crop of pig weed. I did pull SOME but at the point I did it the seed was mature. This year I don't have a single pig weed growing in that 1 acre plot. NOT ONE!!

I cant tell you why but that is the fact of the matter.

 

[SD51555]

It happens every year. Certain environmental conditions favor certain plant species over others. Around here I could use wild cucumber as an example. Two years ago they were EVERYWHERE, last year less prevalent, and this year almost non existent. If you pay attention to the plant species growing in road ditches from year to year you will start to notice what he is talking about.

Like I mentioned, Last year my diversity plot had a pretty heavy crop of pig weed. I did pull SOME but at the point I did it the seed was mature. This year I don't have a single pig weed growing in that 1 acre plot. NOT ONE!!

I cant tell you why but that is the fact of the matter.

What's all in your diversity plot? I went back through the thread looking for the story. I'd be curious to hear.

I throw nearly everything I can think of into my perennial plots now. I'm even planting a pound of ragweed seed with my perennials as soon as some rain shows.

 

[SD51555]

Great info SD, Thank you sir! Very interesting bud.

This is why this is my hobby. I'm never done learning, and there's always new stuff to try.

Last spring, I spread collards and barley onto 3" of snow in March. Everyone I told thought I'd lost my mind. I wanted to push the idea of resistance to germination with cool season seeds to see if it'd work. It came up. It wasn't a terrific stand, but many plants made it. This next spring, I can tweak it a bit and not be quite so cavalier with the early start. A takeaway I had from that was to definitely repeat the process, but maybe wait until the snow is gone and the ground is still frozen. Then I'd go with proper rates of flax, and collards. I won't have room for barley anymore, I've got it converted to WW now.

 

[S.T.Fanatic]

What's all in your diversity plot? I went back through the thread looking for the story. I'd be curious to hear.

I throw nearly everything I can think of into my perennial plots now. I'm even planting a pound of ragweed seed with my perennials as soon as some rain shows.

Last spring the plot was seeded with sunflowers, soybeans, peas, and swedes. I broadcast the seed into a standing patch of winter rye, icicle winter peas, and weeds. The plot was rolled flat with my homemade crimper and not sprayed. I over seeded it with radish and winter barley in late August last year. The plot was weedy because the crimper doesn't do a great job at crimping general weeds.

This spring I seeded buckwheat into a better stand of winter barley (still plenty weedy) and again crimped it without spraying.

It is currently a weed patch with plenty of buckwheat mixed in. I will be seeding it in a couple of weeks heavily with winter barley 150#, sunflowers 15# , winter peas 70#, and a pound or two of radish. It will be broadcast planted into the standing plot, crimped, and sprayed HEAVILY with gly. I want to get ahead of the weeds for next year.

 

[SD51555]

Last spring the plot was seeded with sunflowers, soybeans, peas, and swedes. I broadcast the seed into a standing patch of winter rye, icicle winter peas, and weeds. The plot was rolled flat with my homemade crimper and not sprayed. I over seeded it with radish and winter barley in late August last year. The plot was weedy because the crimper doesn't do a great job at crimping general weeds.

This spring I seeded buckwheat into a better stand of winter barley (still plenty weedy) and again crimped it without spraying.

It is currently a weed patch with plenty of buckwheat mixed in. I will be seeding it in a couple of weeks heavily with winter barley 150#, sunflowers 15# , winter peas 70#, and a pound or two of radish. It will be broadcast planted into the standing plot, crimped, and sprayed HEAVILY with gly. I want to get ahead of the weeds for next year.

That's the one where the pigweed started losing ground to the other species out there?

 

[S.T.Fanatic]

That's the one where the pigweed started losing ground to the other species out there?

Yes. But, this is only year one post pigweed so who knows what next year will bring.

 

[Jake]

Glad I stopped back in on the forums.

2021 update and I am super excited.

All that rye I spread last year 2020 in spring 2021 here got to about a foot or so. Broadcasted beans heavy into it and Cultipack and spray. Come month later time to spray round up on the beans turns out they weren't round up ready per my guy I got them from.. lucky I was small scale as others found out the hard way...
So by this time weeds and some pigweed is coming out to play.... I get round up ready beans and some buckwheat(cover crop idea) and lightly till them in end of June. Mid July spray once and cleans up plot perfect and enough soil exposed... Mid august broadcast brassicas and buckwheat and oats into beans and Cultipack. No tilling no pigweed....

Other spot I left rye seed out and spread fertilizer and seed and Cultipack and spray and done 3rd week of August.

My sorghum (Domain incognito mix) I had to till but hit it with 24d mid summer and killed the pigweed in the screening. Wasn't that bad though.

So thanks for riding along and I am beyond happy in 2021 and feel I won.

Frost seeded clover too coming in strong end of August.

 

[Jake]

Few more pics.

 

[Foggy47]

Just read this thread and feel pretty connected with these pigweed issues of time gone by (I hope). Last summer, I made a commitment and big changes to more no-till planting, cover crops, eliminating row crops (and open spaces for weeds), multi species planting, and "the buffalo system" in general. in the past I thought more tillage was better, buy expensive seeds, and spray expensive chemicals to kill those pigweed...... Duh! Rapidly going nowhere with those plans.

Spent several months now in learning all I could on YouTube, a few good books, and internet searches and reading sites like this. Even listened some to the likes of SD (grin). Been learning to smoother out the pigweed with my (and natures) preferred ground covers. My new drill and roller crimper should allow me to more easily manage 10 acres of food plots...hopefully with less tillage, fertilizers, and chemicals that time gone by. Lots of new methods....and more of natures curve balls are certain.....but I feel good about the direction I am heading. Maybe with the new methods here, Mother Nature can help instead of work to prevent my attempts to produce some forage.

Kinda late to this regenerative agriculture / no-tll party.....but sometimes "you just don't know what you don't know". "The plot thickens." Grin.

 

[SD51555]

...Even listened some to the likes of SD (grin). ..

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[buckdeer1]

Spray enlist beans such as the ones from Real World and spray with Interline

 

[Foggy47]

I had much the same issue as the OP in the two or three years prior to last summer. Damn Pigweed was foiling every attempt at growing my tillage plots. I always thought tillage was what it took to be a "good farmer". Learned the hard way it ain't necessarily so. I spent many hours reading everything I could, and watched many hours of video, and more.....on no till and regenerative farming practices and committed myself to giving it a try last August. After a drought of a summer.....I got my drill....nuked everything....applied Libery herbicides where needed, and planted 100 lbs of cereal rye and 34 lbs of a ten seed mix into my land. The very day I finished seeding into the dry dirt.....it rained......and then rained some more and it was almost like unreal weather since then. Lucky.....and timely.

I'm now nearly a year later......into mid July after a great winter rye and clover spring and early summer growth. No signs of pigweed in my plots yet.....other than about 3 plants in random areas. (knock on wood) Weather has been good for growing things. I rolled my rye a little early....but with rain in the forcast....I wanted to fill out my plots with beneficial brasica seeds and keep the pigweed "crowded out" with better things. I just drilled a GCC "fall release" crop into six acres and a similar brasica "home brew" into another 3 acres. With the recent rains.....I'm sure these seeds will take hold. I have a decent stand of red and white clover developing throughout these plots as well as some various beans, buckwheat and other seeds from the GCC "summer release" which I planted in early June.

I feel I do not have a long enough growing season to plant both the summer release and the fall release type crops. That was a bit of a expensive mistake on my part.....but if it may have prevented pig weed from growing this year.....then so be it. Next year I believe I will let my winter rye go until mid July (or just before it gets ripe - whichever comes first) before terminating with my crimper or flail mower (both work well) and planting my fall Brassica mix.

I plan to either drill or broadcast 100 lbs / acre of rye into my plots (ten acres) this fall.....and have 1000 lbs of bagged Elbon rye sitting in my shed and ready to go. No more bin run seed for me!

Here is my dillenmna: I don't know if I dare to drive though a good stand of turnips, collards, radish, and rape to drill that rye into the plots?? But.....I have had very poor success in broadcasting any grains (or other seeds for that matter) into my sandy soils without some tillage or at least cultipacking. Maybe having all that rye mulch will provide what is needed to broadcast tha newt rye??? Dunno. I'm inclined to try some of each this year (broadcasting and drilling) and learn from my efforts for next year.

I do feel that the rye is an intregal part of my ability to control the pigweeds. And I plan to focus on that rye above all other efforts. I would even consider drilling the rye into my land in spring....but I dont get back to MN (from AZ) until Mid-May each year......and that Rye is the first thing my deer are on when the snow is gone.....and it's already providing some level of weed control and nutrition to some very hungry deer, when I get back to MN. (according to my cell cameras).

Advice, experience, or thoughts about drilling or broadcasting cereal rye this fall are much appreciated.

BTW.....that Tar River Drill I bought has provided more satisfaction to me than any other implement I have owned....and I own a few.. Maybe my views could change....but I do not think so. I suppose I could say that about other brand of a 3 point drill too......the Tar River Saya 505 just became the first available at an affordable price for me. I got 30 acres of use so far....and it's been stellar.

Thanks for any advice.

Some pics below.....yep there are some weeds, lots of clover and some beans, buckwheat, rye mulch, and more in those plots. Above all.....I am building SOIL!

 

[Turkey Creek]

I understand too much of anything can be bad/ a nuisance. Keep in mind that Pigweed is very high in protein and deer readily consume it at times. I have more than 1 trailcam video where it looks like the doe actually has a vacuum for a mouth. stripping the leaves off the plant faster than you could ever imagine.

 

[Foggy47]

I understand too much of anything can be bad/ a nuisance. Keep in mind that Pigweed is very high in protein and deer readily consume it at times. I have more than 1 trailcam video where it looks like the doe actually has a vacuum for a mouth. stripping the leaves off the plant faster than you could ever imagine.

Yep....I know they will eat it.....but it absolutely decimates any effort of other beneficial crops I had planted in the past (especially beans and corn when planted in rows). I am done with row crop farming and chemicals (I think). I have not sold my tillage tools and JD71 planter - yet. But I may part with some of them in the times to come. Pigweed is bad Ju-Ju when you spend your dollars on expensive seeds and have some other ideas about crop farming. I got no place for that chit.....even if the deer eat it.

NOTE: I think I got my pigweed from some rye I bought via the local seed dealer. No proof.....but that was when my trouble started.....and they no longer will sell any winter rye. Duh? Really?? I suspect that they do not have the proper way to clean those seeds and were selling the pigweed infested rye to unsuspecting farmers and food plot guys. No proof....just a suspicion on my part. I'd be very wary of where you buy your seeds. Stay away from bin-run products.....IMO.

If it's "too cheap" or too good to be true.....it probably is. ;)

 

[Wild Thing]

Yep....I know they will eat it.....but it absolutely decimates any effort of other beneficial crops I had planted in the past (especially beans and corn when planted in rows). I am done with row crop farming and chemicals (I think). I have not sold my tillage tools and JD71 planter - yet. But I may part with some of them in the times to come. Pigweed is bad Ju-Ju when you spend your dollars on expensive seeds and have some other ideas about crop farming. I got no place for that chit.....even if the deer eat it.

NOTE: I think I got my pigweed from some rye I bought via the local seed dealer. No proof.....but that was when my trouble started.....and they no longer will sell any winter rye. Duh? Really?? I suspect that they do not have the proper way to clean those seeds and were selling the pigweed infested rye to unsuspecting farmers and food plot guys. No proof....just a suspicion on my part. I'd be very wary of where you buy your seeds. Stay away from bin-run products.....IMO.

If it's "too cheap" or too good to be true.....it probably is. ;)

I got a real good price on some rye last year also....turned out to be the dirtiest seed I've ever seen...



Drilled a summer cover crop which came in well...


but so did an infestation of pigweed...


The pigweed was so thick that pulling it was out of the question, so I sprayed it with gly a week or so ago. I checked it yesterday and it all looked pretty much like toast but I will wait a little longer and maybe spray it again before planting my fall cover crop.


I had the same pigweed issue a couple years ago in the strip adjacent to this one. I rolled a good cover crop of rye with my cultipacker and drilled brassicas into it...


The brassicas came in just fine...but unfortunately, so did some pigweed...


so I sprayed the entire one-acre plot with Gly...


and planted a cover crop...


The cover crop came in fine the next spring...


and I just let it go for the rest of the summer...and just mowed it in August. So far, the pigweed has not come back but my fingers are crossed...


I did pony up for some clean rye for this years' cover crop though - $21/50#

 

[Wild Thing]

Winter wheat was the same price but hopefully it is weed free...

 

[SD51555]

Pigweed thrives in a bacterial soil. At any given moment, soil has a fungal to bacteria ratio. When it gets reset with chemical or tillage, you lose all your fungal, and you start over again at bacterial dominated. Constant living green is what keeps your fungal alive, and it will build ever higher the longer it's green. Keep it green, and it'll no longer be hospitable to pigweed. This is why it has a tendency to explode when soil is continually reset. Nothing else will grow. All the fungal advantaged plants die because the system changes.

It can take a year or two to advance enough to really snuff the bacterial dominant stuff out, but it will happen because the soil changes. I've been hoping to grow a viable thistle patch, and I cannot keep them alive. I've lost my gold finches because of it. I did get a small canada thistle patch where I was digging last year, but it won't last.

 

[Foggy47]

^ The only guy I know whom celebrates Canadian Thistle. Tsk, tsk, tsk. ;)

That analogy on bacterial soil is interesting.....so much to learn....so little time.