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MN bills introduced to allow crossbows during archery season.

I put zero belief in these hunter recruitment numbers by these organizations. They are thinly veiled money grabs. Tell me one place in this country outside of some northwood Maine county where there is more hunting land than hunters. Dwindling numbers is all bs, especially given the context of how much available land we lose yearly to development and whatnot. The day I pull up to public land in the south and it looks like a ghost town, or the day I don’t have to wait 20 years to draw a trophy elk and deer tag out west is the day I believe we have a hunter numbers issue.
 
SD51555 said:
We’ve been down a long road hoping and fighting for a change in direction from the state. This site was born out of the banning of MDDI guys from the QDMA forum.

What I’ve learned after ten years of this government shit is this:

**Government is an agent of death in anything they touch. Their job is to kill everything. Nothing nefarious there, it’s just what government does. That includes any wildlife that threatens progress.

**If you want good deer hunting, that’s up to you. I had to go big time on food quality and cover to consolidate deer on my property. It worked and I had the best numbers ever last year. Everyone else said it’s the worst it’s ever been around my township.

**In wolf country, a crossbow will do you no good when it comes to harvesting big bucks. I hunted with one for three years now (destroyed shoulder from football), and it maybe gives 10-15 extra yards over a compound. I’ve started seeing big bucks, and they don’t wander around in a food plot for two hours in the daylight like they do south of the wolf belt. You might get 1-3 seconds to whack that big bastard as he runs his hoes off the food and back to the shag pad.

#SauceIt


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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What is mddi? I’m just starting to pay attention to deer management in mn. Would be nice to learn more about what has/hasn’t worked in the past.
 
I’ve been involved in this shit for well over 20 years in Wi. At one time at a much higher level than now. I got involved, went to meetings, spoke at meetings, and of course on the inter webs.

What you’re going to find is that this stuff, in the higher levels of govt, has nothing to do with the wildlife or the hunters who got us where we are today. It’s about power to them…..end of discussion. If they can consolidate or gain electoral power on the backs of hunters by helping us or hurting us, they won’t hesitate.

Being involved in the baiting and crossbow wars in WI were the most frustrating and futile endeavors of my life. What did I get out of all that time working to stop them? Crossbows for everyone and baiting is plan A for 90% of hunters. I ultimately quit all of it, bought as much land as I could afford and now make my own rules on my own place.

I believe that the hunting and the outdoors lifestyle so many of us on here enjoy will be gone inside a generation BECAUSE of the rush to be all-inclusive and easy. And you know what? I don’t even care anymore. Burn it all down and read about it in books once I’m gone…..and call it progress.
 
I don't believe it is just a money grab. If it was, WI would charge $300-$400 for a buck tag like states surrounding WI do. When we had earn-a-buck here in WI, we lead in all P&Y and BC scoring and doe killed #'s went up. What a tourist draw to have proper wildlife heard mgmt with the outcome being better and more trophy class bucks to support those $400 buck tag and reducing the doe #'s.

I also got involved during the Deer 2000 push, crossbow wars, etc. Went to meetings, helped to organize, wrote the letters, spoke at meetings, etc., etc. I learned that the so called DNR listening meetings where they were required to take public input were just checkbox events, The DNR held the meetings just to check that box and none of the issues from hunters were addressed.

Regarding crossbows, I was against them at first. They were simply used by bad hunters who were looking for an easy solution during bow season. A crossbow takes little or no skill and I was firmly in the camp that vertical bows required much higher skill level, not just to make the shot, but to get close to an animal. The DNR pushed crossbows' on us to increase kill #'s and fast forward to today, kill #'s have not changed as there is no buck harvest mgmt as there is no carrot and stick to kill a doe.

I can get a buck tag for gun and bow. With those I get 4 free doe tags. I used to harvest 2-3 does every year as we had a deer donation program where local processors would take and process the deer for free and donate the meat. The DNR in all their wisdom decided to list deer carcass' as hazardous waste putting a huge paperwork and cost burden on the processors. Now most of the processors have stopped taking deer forcing people to process their own deer. The closet processor to me is 40 miles away and charges $130 to process a deer. This will eventually hurt the kill #'s as many won't process their own deer.

I don't know of a neighbor around me who uses a vertical bow anymore. We are supposed to pay a $3 permit fee on our bow license to use a crossbow. I refuse to pay it as I suspect most do. The DNR can't monitor it so it is a useless fee.

In Minn you will not stop crossbows...
 
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We probably ran in some of the same circles back then Tree Spud. Just reading this thread made my BP start to rise….remembering those times.

You can’t stop greed or lazy, Mn. You can try and you should, but get ready to have your ass handed to you.

FWIW…..I have no problem with older folks or handicapped using xguns. Never did.
 
Dems are the majority here and they don’t do anything that is a positive for our state. It’s almost like intentional sabotage !
 
Wind Gypsy said:
What is mddi? I’m just starting to pay attention to deer management in mn. Would be nice to learn more about what has/hasn’t worked in the past.
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The trouble makers moved here after QDMA started banning them for calling out the QDMA brass for not standing up for deer and hunters in MN. A real deer advocacy group was spawned out of that angst called the MN Deer Density Initiative. Our purpose was to fix it, all of it.

“Save a doe, let the herd grow” was the motto. We had a head guy that directly engaged with the brass at DNR and they eventually blackballed him. There were numerous members on goal setting teams that witnessed first hand the shady shit done to guide the outcome of the goal setting meetings to the desires of whomever has bought the DNR.

There were hearings at the capitol on herd management, modeling techniques, and more. We eventually got the legislative auditor to evaluate deer management in MN, and it was a good audit, but the DNR found a way to make sure nothing good came of it.

The deer plan was born out of that and the DNR got to pick the stakeholders on the team, and there wasn’t a single entity on that team advocating for deer. It was a cast of stooges all placed there by the DNR themselves or monied interests that command the activities of the state.
 
Here it was called Deer 2000 and beyond. They asked for input from hunters and hunters responded with lots of time and effort invested state wide. Many good ideas were generated and recommendations made.

In the end, it was all a waste of time with the hunting community being more fractured than when we started. The “monied” interests won every battle based on false premises and infighting in our own house.

Don’t for one second think that this is all about bettering the future of hunting. You’ll find that the people fighting for inclusion the hardest have something to gain. Either money or power and you get more of both by dividing us. End of discussion for me.
 
Anybody who doesn't recognize the continual decline of deer hunters is sticking their head in the sand. And the new generation of deer hunters is much different vs 30 years ago. Shooting a doe deep on some public land, field dressing it, and pulling it back to the car with a rope is of no interest to them. They want to sit on private property, shoot a big buck 1st time out with no scouting, and use an ATV to recover it. As to how this relates to crossbows, I'm a fan. Sure it is quicker and easier to become proficient with a crossbow vs a compound bow. But a hunter harvesting 4 a year with a compound will not start taking 8 a year with a crossbow. Same goes for 1 vs 2. Generally, each hunter has a number of deer in their mind that they would like to harvest each year. The new generation's season ends after whacking a good one. But that the kicker, the only ones opposing crossbows are the ones that want to keep all the "big bucks" for themselves, the real hunters. The same that shame hunters for taking a "young" buck.
 
bueller said:
Anybody who doesn't recognize the continual decline of deer hunters is sticking their head in the sand. And the new generation of deer hunters is much different vs 30 years ago. Shooting a doe deep on some public land, field dressing it, and pulling it back to the car with a rope is of no interest to them. They want to sit on private property, shoot a big buck 1st time out with no scouting, and use an ATV to recover it. As to how this relates to crossbows, I'm a fan. Sure it is quicker and easier to become proficient with a crossbow vs a compound bow. But a hunter harvesting 4 a year with a compound will not start taking 8 a year with a crossbow. Same goes for 1 vs 2. Generally, each hunter has a number of deer in their mind that they would like to harvest each year. The new generation's season ends after whacking a good one. But that the kicker, the only ones opposing crossbows are the ones that want to keep all the "big bucks" for themselves, the real hunters. The same that shame hunters for taking a "young" buck.
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So why not just eliminate archery season and make it rifle season long? If it’s not changing the numbers why put any skill limitations on seasons?
And conversely I don’t see it as a negative that the trend is going towards big buck harvest. It is a noble pursuit to strive for the peak of the species. Also with big buck desires comes management (habitat and herd) objectives, which is a good thing overall.
 
Howboutthemdawgs said:
So why not just eliminate archery season and make it rifle season long? If it’s not changing the numbers why put any skill limitations on seasons?
And conversely I don’t see it as a negative that the trend is going towards big buck harvest. It is a noble pursuit to strive for the peak of the species. Also with big buck desires comes management (habitat and herd) objectives, which is a good thing overall.
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I don't think we will ever see rifles everyday from September to December, at least in WI. Way to many other outdoor activities on public lands would be effected. Personally I wish they would eliminate all early gun seasons. The deer get really spooky as soon as youth season hits around here.
 
bueller said:
Anybody who doesn't recognize the continual decline of deer hunters is sticking their head in the sand. And the new generation of deer hunters is much different vs 30 years ago. Shooting a doe deep on some public land, field dressing it, and pulling it back to the car with a rope is of no interest to them. They want to sit on private property, shoot a big buck 1st time out with no scouting, and use an ATV to recover it. As to how this relates to crossbows, I'm a fan. Sure it is quicker and easier to become proficient with a crossbow vs a compound bow. But a hunter harvesting 4 a year with a compound will not start taking 8 a year with a crossbow. Same goes for 1 vs 2. Generally, each hunter has a number of deer in their mind that they would like to harvest each year. The new generation's season ends after whacking a good one. But that the kicker, the only ones opposing crossbows are the ones that want to keep all the "big bucks" for themselves, the real hunters. The same that shame hunters for taking a "young" buck.
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So anytime someone wants a new weapon and a new season, we should all be “oh gosh I can’t be selfish and want bucks to live longer “ or “ I should feel guilty because I want some solitude during the archery season”

That’s a poor argument. I hope they shut down this bill, Minnesota has too many weapons/seasons already. Plus it was introduced by 2 metro Democrats.
 
Mo added another early rifle season this year, rifle doe Oct 6 - Oct 8. Along with a two week rifle season in CWD counties...😟
 
bwoods11 said:
So anytime someone wants a new weapon and a new season, we should all be “oh gosh I can’t be selfish and want bucks to live longer “ or “ I should feel guilty because I want some solitude during the archery season”

That’s a poor argument. I hope they shut down this bill, Minnesota has too many weapons/seasons already. Plus it was introduced by 2 metro Democrats.
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Everyone is oppressed these days. Every license holder has the ability to archery hunt if they want. It’s only unfair if you choose not to put in the effort to participate.
 
bueller said:
I don't think we will ever see rifles everyday from September to December, at least in WI. Way to many other outdoor activities on public lands would be effected. Personally I wish they would eliminate all early gun seasons. The deer get really spooky as soon as youth season hits around here.
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And that's the rub. Many activities on public land during the fall. I'll confess, I could give a crap about deer hunting other than deer camp which is a good time. Give me my dog and some birds to hunt. My mutt got way more wound up about birds than any antler porn fella does about their quarry. No contest. But it is fun as heck to watch a dog work. As usual YMMV.
 
bueller said:
the only ones opposing crossbows are the ones that want to keep all the "big bucks" for themselves, the real hunters. The same that shame hunters for taking a "young" buck.
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That’s such a false alternative in many cases. I want big bucks for everyone. It’s possible for people to kill just as many deer but of an older age class. For clarity, im not saying that’s possible everywhere! In many parts of northern MN you can pass yearlings every year and still be hard pressed to kill a mature buck just because of the population and habitat. But where my land is the dnr is claiming 40+ deer per square mile and I saw ONE guaranteed 3+ YO buck on camera all year last year. Hunting could be better for everyone if people just settled for a doe for a couple years vs a 1 or 2 YO. It instead we’re making it easier and easier to kill everything. Heaven forbid any bucks live to see 3 years old!
 
Wind Gypsy said:
That’s such a false alternative in many cases. I want big bucks for everyone. It’s possible for people to kill just as many deer but of an older age class. For clarity, im not saying that’s possible everywhere! In many parts of northern MN you can pass yearlings every year and still be hard pressed to kill a mature buck just because of the population and habitat. But where my land is the dnr is claiming 40+ deer per square mile and I saw ONE guaranteed 3+ YO buck on camera all year last year. Hunting could be better for everyone if people just settled for a doe for a couple years vs a 1 or 2 YO. It instead we’re making it easier and easier to kill everything. Heaven forbid any bucks live to see 3 years old!
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There would be more mature bucks running around if more hunters took a doe or ate tag soup instead of harvesting a young buck, but that is not a crossbow specific issue. Bad hunters have a hard time harvesting a deer with any weapon, and good hunters are successful more often than not no matter the weapon. Crossbows won't kill deer hunting as we know it, but the pay to play and trophy only mentality may.
 
Howboutthemdawgs said:
I put zero belief in these hunter recruitment numbers by these organizations. They are thinly veiled money grabs. Tell me one place in this country outside of some northwood Maine county where there is more hunting land than hunters. Dwindling numbers is all bs, especially given the context of how much available land we lose yearly to development and whatnot. The day I pull up to public land in the south and it looks like a ghost town, or the day I don’t have to wait 20 years to draw a trophy elk and deer tag out west is the day I believe we have a hunter numbers issue.
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Dawgs - I’m there with you. Go hunt some public land in VT or Ohio and tell me we need more hunters!

I watch the Facebook groups on leasing land in Ohio - 5k for 50 acres of ag fields and 2 ditches. $1000+ for a turkey lease!
 
My personal observation from hunting VT (all public) and helping my dad weigh in deer at our weigh station, after VT implemented a 1 buck rule and crossbows for all around 3 years ago.

Most average deer hunters moved to a crossbow during archery. On public does that relate to more success - I’d say maybe 15%. You still have to get on deer. What I see a lot of people doing on public is “taking their crossbow for a walk”. Does that hurt me (more serious hunter) not really. Still a 1 buck state.

Interesting thing is - I’ve got sometimes during rifle season (Nov 14-28) you might find you have the woods to yourself. Not great because no one is waking around getting the deer up and moving.
 
Spike_Horn_Shooter said:
Dawgs - I’m there with you. Go hunt some public land in VT or Ohio and tell me we need more hunters!

I watch the Facebook groups on leasing land in Ohio - 5k for 50 acres of ag fields and 2 ditches. $1000+ for a turkey lease!
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Totally agree. Try to buy some land or lease some land or join a hunting club or hunt public during rifle season and complain to me that we are losing numbers at a rate proportional to land available.
 
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