Ladino Clover / Cereal Rye??

[SD51555]

I’ve come to a simple understanding of how to help clover. Neglect and abuse it as much as possible.

No fertilizer (excluding lime/gypsum)
Bombard it with as much non-legume competition as you can, but make sure it’s stuff u can control easily. That’s what makes rye so attractive. Flax is a close second in my book. Chicory also tied for second.

I am throwing and mowing today into my white clover. I’ve got rye and wheat getting buzzed off with it. Over the top, I’m putting back rye, (top secret second cereal), flax, sunflower, jap millet, collards, more chicory, and more hairy vetch. Not all that stuff is gonna make it, but I want a good blend fighting to partner with that clover for the next 12-mo rotation.


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[TomRC]

FarmerDan, there are apparently two schools of thought on what's best for perennial clovers LONG TERM . One school of thought follows your thinking in that you should not overseed perennial clovers with rye or wheat beyond the first year. The other school of thought is that you should overseed perennial clover every fall year after year with rye or wheat as part of plan to HELP the clover long term.

I want the healthiest perennial clover plot possible and I'm really confused now as opinions seem so split.

 

[SD51555]

FarmerDan, there are apparently two schools of thought on what's best for perennial clovers LONG TERM . One school of thought follows your thinking in that you should not overseed perennial clovers with rye or wheat beyond the first year. The other school of thought is that you should overseed perennial clover every fall year after year with rye or wheat as part of plan to HELP the clover long term.

I want the healthiest perennial clover plot possible and I'm really confused now as opinions seem so split.

Most of the best work on soils has come out of the Dakotas. It’s been ten or fifteen years since the Burleigh County extension office touched off an eye opener. They did a ten species cover crop test plot, all single species plantings. Then they mixed all the leftover seed together and put in an eleventh. All ten died due to drought. The mix of those ten in one thrived, because those plants are stronger together.

Alone, a species will thrive until it over-exploits it advantage and then succumbs to takeover by the next plants that can thrive in that new condition. That’s what necessitates spraying and fertilizing, and that sets off a whole new set of problems.


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[TomRC]

I'm going to move forward with overseeding rye into the Ladino. If it turns out to be a disaster for the clover then I guess this time next year I can hook up the tiller to the tractor and start over from scratch. Thanks again for all the input!!

 

[omicron1792]

I'm going to move forward with overseeding rye into the Ladino. If it turns out to be a disaster for the clover then I guess this time next year I can hook up the tiller to the tractor and start over from scratch. Thanks again for all the input!!

Best move imo.

 

[BenAllgood]

I'd put chicory in it.

 

[FarmerDan]

FarmerDan, there are apparently two schools of thought on what's best for perennial clovers LONG TERM . One school of thought follows your thinking in that you should not overseed perennial clovers with rye or wheat beyond the first year. The other school of thought is that you should overseed perennial clover every fall year after year with rye or wheat as part of plan to HELP the clover long term.

I want the healthiest perennial clover plot possible and I'm really confused now as opinions seem so split.

LOL! Good debate! It's hardly a life threatening or world saving decision! I'm a science guy. Show me the science - and one study 15 years ago in the Dakotas is hardly conclusive -even if the experimental design was adequate. It needs to be repeatable and replicated with the same basic result. But, there's always room for fun and good natured debate because I doubt there's much science to settle the question. Good luck and BEST WISHES!

 

[yoderjac]

FarmerDan, there are apparently two schools of thought on what's best for perennial clovers LONG TERM . One school of thought follows your thinking in that you should not overseed perennial clovers with rye or wheat beyond the first year. The other school of thought is that you should overseed perennial clover every fall year after year with rye or wheat as part of plan to HELP the clover long term.

I want the healthiest perennial clover plot possible and I'm really confused now as opinions seem so split.

If I'm managing for deer, I start with deer. In order to support deer in the long run, I need healthy soil with sufficient deer food growing in it. I can focus on both deer and soil health at the same time. When I establish a perennial clover field, I start with a nurse crop of WR. Not only does it benefit the establishment of clover, WR and Clover add C and N to the soil which, over time, builds OM to improve nutrient cycling. First, in general, deer are browsers and most of their diet comes from native foods. Nature abhors a monoculture. That is why farmers have to fight so hard to maintain a monoculture. Even when we start with a pure stand of clover, over time grasses and other "weeds" will encroach. We can fight nature which is diversifying the field by using herbicides, but it is a losing battle. Or, we work with nature. Many of the "weeds" are good deer food.

So, what are we actually doing when we drill cereal into established clover? Grasses are good carbon contributors, so we are not really improving the soil over just letting grasses encroach. We are simply introducing a different kind of grass. It happens to be a grass that deer eat.

 

[Nightvision]

I'm going to move forward with overseeding rye into the Ladino. If it turns out to be a disaster for the clover then I guess this time next year I can hook up the tiller to the tractor and start over from scratch. Thanks again for all the input!!

You’re not going to hurt your clover overseeding it with rye. Your winters are cold enough that the clover will go dormant for a few months and the rye will give your deer something to eat during that time.

If you’re worried about your clover, just spray some Cleth on the rye early March about the time it starts warming up. That’s also the time that I toss out a little 0-20-20.

 

[TomRC]

You’re not going to hurt your clover overseeding it with rye. Your winters are cold enough that the clover will go dormant for a few months and the rye will give your deer something to eat during that time.

If you’re worried about your clover, just spray some Cleth on the rye early March about the time it starts warming up. That’s also the time that I toss out a little 0-20-20.

That's the plan and my thought that the rye will takes some pressure off the clover , provide some additional winter nutrition when the clover slows down, and help the soil. Frost seed some more Ladino late winter, hit it with Clethodim and 24DB in spring to curb weeds and the rye and then rinse and repeat this process annually. We shall see!

 

[4wanderingeyes]

I am one of them that likes to grow winter rye with clover. But, I guess the reason I do so is to use up excess nitrogen the clover is making, or non desirable grasses will start filling in thinner spots, and eventually start over taking the plots. Winter rye is a grass, that deer eat, and is easily contained, controlled and is predictable what it will do.

Shorter clover, will easily grow winter rye, and it won’t smother the clover. They tend to grow well together. But I am not even trying to be in any magazine pictures for a weedless plot. I just want plants that deer desire growing.

 

[TomRC]

One last question. When I overseed the cereal rye into the Ladino next month should I mow the clover down and if so how low? If I don't mow the clover I'm guessing it will be 3 to 5 inches when I overseed. Thanks!

 

[Tree Spud]

One last question. When I overseed the cereal rye into the Ladino next month should I mow the clover down and if so how low? If I don't mow the clover I'm guessing it will be 3 to 5 inches when I overseed. Thanks!

I think you are overthinking it. I have overseeded 60-100 lbs of WR into clover for the past 15-20 years. Have overseeded into white, ladino, red, alsike, beseem, etc. with no issues. Have never mowed the clover and have overseed into 12-18" clover. WR will germinate almost anywhere and will germinate & green up down to 32 F. I have had WR germinate in the back bed of my Kawi Mule.

With the deer density you showed in your pic, you should be keeping as much forage as you can in the clover.

Clover and overseeding WR is the Idiots Guide to Food Plotting ... it's pretty fool proof. It's also the least expensive food plot for spring, summer, & fall food.

 

[yoderjac]

One last question. When I overseed the cereal rye into the Ladino next month should I mow the clover down and if so how low? If I don't mow the clover I'm guessing it will be 3 to 5 inches when I overseed. Thanks!

Mowing flat will improve germination rates. Seeds need soil contact and sun penetration to germinate.

 

[TomRC]

I think you are overthinking it. I have overseeded 60-100 lbs of WR into clover for the past 15-20 years. Have overseeded into white, ladino, red, alsike, beseem, etc. with no issues. Have never mowed the clover and have overseed into 12-18" clover. WR will germinate almost anywhere and will germinate & green up down to 32 F. I have had WR germinate in the back bed of my Kawi Mule.

With the deer density you showed in your pic, you should be keeping as much forage as you can in the clover.

Clover and overseeding WR is the Idiots Guide to Food Plotting ... it's pretty fool proof. It's also the least expensive food plot for spring, summer, & fall food.

Yes, I overthink everything! Genetic flaw.

 

[Wild Thing]

I broadcast rye into small clover plots with some success, but I get better germination when I drill rye into my clover strips:









As previously mentioned, the rye provides fall and spring forage and it can easily be terminated once it grows beyond being palatable by spraying with Clethodim or a light dose of Gly.

 

[Foggy47]

I could be quite happy with a cereal rye and clover plot like said by the OP.....IF I LIVED IN A WARMER ClIMATE. Being in zone 3.....most years my clover will diminish prior to the November gun season.....and I am left with no food in my plots to draw the deer. Also, in early spring.....rye provides some much needed nutrition to starving deer. This spring my deer were really hurting.....and the early green-up of rye provided for them. Zone 3 can be harsh.

So....like the OP......I need the Cereal Rye for the nutrition....but also for the allopathic properties on weeds. If I were further south.....say zone 6?.....I would let it go at that. BUT.....I want some additional fall draw for the November gun season. Enter Brassica planting....with the rye in late August.

Setting back that clover with mowing and / or chemicals (Glyphosate) becomes my challenge.......in order to get the brassica established. I'm confident the Rye will grow. The brassica can take a more timely rain to establish.

I'll always remember what Paul (Lick Creek) would say....."clover and rye go together like peanut butter and jelly".

 

[SD51555]

That's the one thing that would get me to jump into that drill owners club. For now, I've got to keep doing it the hard way.

 

[Wild Thing]

I could be quite happy with a cereal rye and clover plot like said by the OP.....IF I LIVED IN A WARMER ClIMATE. Being in zone 3.....most years my clover will diminish prior to the November gun season.....and I am left with no food in my plots to draw the deer. Also, in early spring.....rye provides some much needed nutrition to starving deer. This spring my deer were really hurting.....and the early green-up of rye provided for them. Zone 3 can be harsh.

So....like the OP......I need the Cereal Rye for the nutrition....but also for the allopathic properties on weeds. If I were further south.....say zone 6?.....I would let it go at that. BUT.....I want some additional fall draw for the November gun season. Enter Brassica planting....with the rye in late August.

Setting back that clover with mowing and / or chemicals (Glyphosate) becomes my challenge.......in order to get the brassica established. I'm confident the Rye will grow. The brassica can take a more timely rain to establish.

I'll always remember what Paul (Lick Creek) would say....."clover and rye go together like peanut butter and jelly".

Same here in Upper Michigan - Zone 4a. Clover goes dormant before firearms deer season generally and other forages are needed for late fall/winter/spring

 

[omicron1792]

I could be quite happy with a cereal rye and clover plot like said by the OP.....IF I LIVED IN A WARMER ClIMATE. Being in zone 3.....most years my clover will diminish prior to the November gun season.....and I am left with no food in my plots to draw the deer. Also, in early spring.....rye provides some much needed nutrition to starving deer. This spring my deer were really hurting.....and the early green-up of rye provided for them. Zone 3 can be harsh.

So....like the OP......I need the Cereal Rye for the nutrition....but also for the allopathic properties on weeds. If I were further south.....say zone 6?.....I would let it go at that. BUT.....I want some additional fall draw for the November gun season. Enter Brassica planting....with the rye in late August.

Setting back that clover with mowing and / or chemicals (Glyphosate) becomes my challenge.......in order to get the brassica established. I'm confident the Rye will grow. The brassica can take a more timely rain to establish.

I'll always remember what Paul (Lick Creek) would say....."clover and rye go together like peanut butter and jelly".

Does your ground stay snow covered all winter?

Do the deer dig down for the brassicas?

All of that is just crazy for me! It rarely ever snows here. Summer is probably our hardest time on the deer.