yoderjac
5 year old buck +
Good point. I've got lots of work to do once the Acumax bullets I plan to hunt with become available again. Last I heard it was supposed to be mid-May, but that has come and gone.
Thanks,
Jack
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Thanks,
Jack
yoderjac
5 year old buck +
I also got some charge bottles with screw on tops since I was having leakage from the old White Hot pellet tubes I had saved. I spent some time tonight measuring out charges in them. Next, I checked out the Pittman bullets. They are something to behold. I sized a dozen of them and used the old White Hot tubes for them. I'm hoping to find time to get to the range tomorrow.
Thanks,
Jack
Thanks,
Jack
yoderjac
5 year old buck +
I made it to the range today with the Pittman bullets. I got perplexing results:
I have not fired the gun since my previous posts. These three shots were using a bull bag from a bench. When I loaded the first Pittman bullet, it was significantly harder to push down the barrel than my fowling shots. However, subsequent shots went down the barrel with very little force like before.
Shot 1 - 1508
Shot 2 - 1972
Shot 3 - 1468
Next, I decided to move the group.
I adjusted the scope windage before shot #4
Shot 4 - 1952
I adjusted the scope windage again before shot #5. I then decided to take 2 more shots after 5 to form a group.
Shot 5 - 1999
Shot 6 - 2214
Shot 7 - 2271
I was pretty happy with that group, so I decided to adjust elevation.
Shot 8 - 2331
Ok, I obviously adjusted the wrong direction...So, let's try again.
Shot 9 - 2123
All in all, I'm quite happy. The perplexing part was the high deviation in velocities with the first few shots. The gun settled down quite nicely. I was taking my time between shots, walking to the target and numbering each shot to kill time and allow the barrel to cool. Could it be something about the bullets I was shooting to foul the barrel last time? Could have the slight heating increased velocity so consistently?
Thanks,
Jack
I have not fired the gun since my previous posts. These three shots were using a bull bag from a bench. When I loaded the first Pittman bullet, it was significantly harder to push down the barrel than my fowling shots. However, subsequent shots went down the barrel with very little force like before.
Shot 1 - 1508
Shot 2 - 1972
Shot 3 - 1468
Next, I decided to move the group.
I adjusted the scope windage before shot #4
Shot 4 - 1952
I adjusted the scope windage again before shot #5. I then decided to take 2 more shots after 5 to form a group.
Shot 5 - 1999
Shot 6 - 2214
Shot 7 - 2271
I was pretty happy with that group, so I decided to adjust elevation.
Shot 8 - 2331
Ok, I obviously adjusted the wrong direction...So, let's try again.
Shot 9 - 2123
All in all, I'm quite happy. The perplexing part was the high deviation in velocities with the first few shots. The gun settled down quite nicely. I was taking my time between shots, walking to the target and numbering each shot to kill time and allow the barrel to cool. Could it be something about the bullets I was shooting to foul the barrel last time? Could have the slight heating increased velocity so consistently?
Thanks,
Jack
So all of those shots were the same charge? Velocities from 1500 to 2300fps? That's a heck of a spread.
Remind me...you're sabotless...did you size under and knurl up or just try to size and shoot smooth? Easiest explanation for the spread if you didn't knurl is you can't size the bullets precisely enough to get equal pressure. It's been years but I think this is why people were sizing small and using coarse files to knurl the bullets back up to meeting the bore.
Remind me...you're sabotless...did you size under and knurl up or just try to size and shoot smooth? Easiest explanation for the spread if you didn't knurl is you can't size the bullets precisely enough to get equal pressure. It's been years but I think this is why people were sizing small and using coarse files to knurl the bullets back up to meeting the bore.
yoderjac
5 year old buck +
Yes, the same charge within a grain or two. I was not super careful getting charges identical since this was my first go. It is quite possible that charge differences were a factor. I've since reloaded my charge tubes and they are now within about .5 grains. To me, it looks like the gun settled down after the first couple shots. I had previously shot other bullets to foul the barrel and the gun sat after that. I'm thinking there was oxidation in the barrel and the first few shots cleared it. Note that my first bullet was quite tight to load and took a lot of pressure. As I shot, it became much easier to load. I've since learned that after a shooting session, it is a good idea to pull the plug and run a brush down the barrel. So, for now, I'm blaming for the velocity spreads.
As for the bullets, I'm not far along yet to knurl bullets, and I have not tried using a sabot or wad yet. I'm a hunter, not a bench shooter, so my plan is to start with keeping things as simple as possible and then adjust as needed.
My plan going forward is to go take one shot and compare the impact point and velocity to the last shot of my previous session. I'll then run a brush down the barrel when it is warm and let the gun sit for a week or so. I'll then repeat that process and see how the first shot does as that is the important one. If I'm still having issues, velocity or accuracy, I'll look at more advanced techniques. Another possibility was barrel heating. I did wait between shots and walked to the target and labeled each shot to kill time and let the barrel cool. I did not use a brass cooling rod or anything like that.
In time, I may get to knurling bullets, but I hope I don't have to go that far.
Thanks for the suggestions,
Jack
yoderjac
5 year old buck +
I finally got back to the range. The gun had been sitting for a week without any cleaning since my last shooting session. I decided to take one shot. I did not bother setting up the chronograph. Here are the results:
The target on the left was my final shot of the last shooting session. The target on the right was my single shot this time. When I loaded the bullet, it was slightly harder to push down the barrel than last time but not hard. Perhaps this was because the gun only sat a week and there was less oxidation. I'm not sure. It looks like the shot today was slightly higher but not much. Probably within my ability to stay on target. Looks like the velocity variation I got at the beginning of my last session was not present.
After the shot, I immediately pulled the breach plug and ran a bore snake for a .410 shotgun with an embedded brass brush through the barrel. I used no cleaning or lubricating chemicals, just the raw snake.
I plan to let the gun sit until the season gets closer. That should give time for any oxidation that is going to for to form. I'll then take another shot and see what happens.
Thanks,
Jack
The target on the left was my final shot of the last shooting session. The target on the right was my single shot this time. When I loaded the bullet, it was slightly harder to push down the barrel than last time but not hard. Perhaps this was because the gun only sat a week and there was less oxidation. I'm not sure. It looks like the shot today was slightly higher but not much. Probably within my ability to stay on target. Looks like the velocity variation I got at the beginning of my last session was not present.
After the shot, I immediately pulled the breach plug and ran a bore snake for a .410 shotgun with an embedded brass brush through the barrel. I used no cleaning or lubricating chemicals, just the raw snake.
I plan to let the gun sit until the season gets closer. That should give time for any oxidation that is going to for to form. I'll then take another shot and see what happens.
Thanks,
Jack
Wind Gypsy
5 year old buck +
I got a similar setup from arrowhead last winter. They have a lot of good info on YouTube if you haven’t watched it yet. I’ve only had time for 5 rounds down the tube so far. First 2 got sighted in, #3,4,5 were touching at 100 yards. I’m really excited about it. Pretty consistent velocity around 2400 FPS with 275 xld bullets and h4198.
Need to get out and mess with it some more but property work takes precedence for now.
Need to get out and mess with it some more but property work takes precedence for now.
yoderjac
5 year old buck +
First 3 shots out of my cva smokeless conversion only 50 yards trying to get the scope on paper. Shows some promise though. My goal is to get a youth load figured out this was 48gr of h4198 a wool wad and a 250gr xtp.
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It has been a real journey for me! Enjoy the process! Hank's message board can provide a lot of good load data. I recall some folks discussing light loads for kids.
Booner21
5 year old buck +
I have been doing the smokeless thing for about 15 years. My savage shot good enough that I never messed with getting anything different until I had more than 1 of my kids shooting at a time.
This is my first 45 cal but yes I have several loads to try finding time to shoot seems to be my biggest barrier right now.
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yoderjac
5 year old buck +
Just a quick update on this adventure. Our ML season started on Saturday. When I loaded the muzzleloader for the first time since my last range session (after which I ran a dry snake with a brush through the barrel). It was slightly tight going down, but not bad at all. I didn't see anything on Saturday and when I got in my stand I noticed the buttstock was a bit loose. On Sunday morning, I removed the buttstock, applied some loctite to the threads and retightened it. I noticed one of the forearm bolts was slightly loose, so I did the same with those.
Sunday evening, I had a 100 yard shot opportunity at a calm feeding mature doe. I put the crosshairs right on her front shoulder and squeezed the trigger. It felt like a good shot but she took off full-steam with no indication of a hit. I took my time and reloaded the muzzleloader. This time the bullet went down smoothly with minimal force. I then went to look for the doe. No blood at the the impact site and no sign of blood where she left the field and entered the pines. I looked and looked and could not find her. I even used a FLIR with no luck. I finally convinced myself I missed her somehow. I don't know when the buttstock had loosened, so I thought perhaps those adjustments and caused a problem or I had knocked the scope out of line or something.
This morning I headed to the range. My first shot was a couple inches low and slightly to the right. Not enough to cause a miss. Next, I removed the shooting bags and rested the barrel on a block of wood on my shooting bench. That shot was only about an inch low. I did this because that is exactly how I executed the shot from my box blind.
I'm not sure what happened. I'm now convinced it was not the gun. I was thinking maybe it was the bullet. This was the first shot at a deer from this gun with this load. Maybe I hit the deer but there was no blood for some reason. So, I then headed out for another look for the doe. Again, not luck finding her.
So, tonight, I decided to hunt a ground blind. I had a young doe at about 60 yards. I wanted to see what was going on with the gun, so I decided to take her. Again, I aimed at the front shoulder. In this popup blind, I had the barrel on a monopod. When I squeezed the trigger, the deer dropped in her tracks. When I headed out to get her, I found her shoulder completely destroyed! It was not the bullet.
Sunday evening, I had a 100 yard shot opportunity at a calm feeding mature doe. I put the crosshairs right on her front shoulder and squeezed the trigger. It felt like a good shot but she took off full-steam with no indication of a hit. I took my time and reloaded the muzzleloader. This time the bullet went down smoothly with minimal force. I then went to look for the doe. No blood at the the impact site and no sign of blood where she left the field and entered the pines. I looked and looked and could not find her. I even used a FLIR with no luck. I finally convinced myself I missed her somehow. I don't know when the buttstock had loosened, so I thought perhaps those adjustments and caused a problem or I had knocked the scope out of line or something.
This morning I headed to the range. My first shot was a couple inches low and slightly to the right. Not enough to cause a miss. Next, I removed the shooting bags and rested the barrel on a block of wood on my shooting bench. That shot was only about an inch low. I did this because that is exactly how I executed the shot from my box blind.
I'm not sure what happened. I'm now convinced it was not the gun. I was thinking maybe it was the bullet. This was the first shot at a deer from this gun with this load. Maybe I hit the deer but there was no blood for some reason. So, I then headed out for another look for the doe. Again, not luck finding her.
So, tonight, I decided to hunt a ground blind. I had a young doe at about 60 yards. I wanted to see what was going on with the gun, so I decided to take her. Again, I aimed at the front shoulder. In this popup blind, I had the barrel on a monopod. When I squeezed the trigger, the deer dropped in her tracks. When I headed out to get her, I found her shoulder completely destroyed! It was not the bullet.
Wind Gypsy
5 year old buck +
Congrats, I know those bullets wreck deer so it’s probably very likely you missed clean.
yoderjac
5 year old buck +
That is what I believed, but after working with the gun at the range, I now have my doubts. 100 yards with a scapula aiming point would require a pretty bad shot at 100 yards for a clean miss.
yoderjac
5 year old buck +
Things are getting even more confusing for me. Tonight I had 2 deer in a field inside 100 yards. I took my time and rested the barrel on the window seal just like last time. In fact, I was shooting from the same window of the same blind where I previously missed the deer. I put the crosshairs right on the deer's shoulder, focused, and slowly squeezed of the shot. Both deer jumped and went on alert but did not leave the field. After a bit, they calmed down and went back to feeding, so I know it was a clean miss.
I reloaded and decided to try again. I put even more focus into the next shot. I put the crosshairs on the front shoulder and squeezed. The deer was clearly hit. It limped off the field like I broke the leg. I reloaded once more before heading out to look for the deer. Before I could leave the blind, I noticed the other deer was back in the field. Once again, I settled on the front shoulder and squeezed the trigger. The deer disappeared. I did not see it run.
I reloaded one more time and then headed out to see what was going on. The second deer had dropped into the brassica and that is why I could not see it. I then looked into the pines and saw the first deer I shot laying on the ground. I figured I had both...NOT. As I approached the first deer I had shot, it got up and ran. Clearly it only had a broken leg, not a mortal wound.
When I picked up the second deer, I found it was shot in the neck. That is a good 6"-8" to the right of my aim point. I can tell about vertical as the shot was far enough forward that depending on head position that I wasn't paying attention to when I shot, it is possible vertical was high, low, or right on.
There is clearly some difference between how this gun is performing in my hands in the field, compared to the range. For now, I'm blaming it on me, but I don't seem to have this issue with my .300 Win Mag barrel on the same frame.
After the season, I'm going to need to do some serious practice at the range, not just shooting with bags. I think that is the only way I'll be able to figure this out. For the rest of this year, I think I'll just limit myself to traditional muzzleloader ranges under 100 yards. If I don't figure this out, it won't be a long-range gun for me.
I reloaded and decided to try again. I put even more focus into the next shot. I put the crosshairs on the front shoulder and squeezed. The deer was clearly hit. It limped off the field like I broke the leg. I reloaded once more before heading out to look for the deer. Before I could leave the blind, I noticed the other deer was back in the field. Once again, I settled on the front shoulder and squeezed the trigger. The deer disappeared. I did not see it run.
I reloaded one more time and then headed out to see what was going on. The second deer had dropped into the brassica and that is why I could not see it. I then looked into the pines and saw the first deer I shot laying on the ground. I figured I had both...NOT. As I approached the first deer I had shot, it got up and ran. Clearly it only had a broken leg, not a mortal wound.
When I picked up the second deer, I found it was shot in the neck. That is a good 6"-8" to the right of my aim point. I can tell about vertical as the shot was far enough forward that depending on head position that I wasn't paying attention to when I shot, it is possible vertical was high, low, or right on.
There is clearly some difference between how this gun is performing in my hands in the field, compared to the range. For now, I'm blaming it on me, but I don't seem to have this issue with my .300 Win Mag barrel on the same frame.
After the season, I'm going to need to do some serious practice at the range, not just shooting with bags. I think that is the only way I'll be able to figure this out. For the rest of this year, I think I'll just limit myself to traditional muzzleloader ranges under 100 yards. If I don't figure this out, it won't be a long-range gun for me.
yoderjac
5 year old buck +
I doubt that. It is a high end Leupold and I had no real issues at the range the other day. You can scroll back up through the thread and see the accuracy of the gun on the bench. I think this has something to do with how I'm shooting the gun in the field, compared to the bench. So far, my shots have been from a box blind and I've rested the barrel on the window ceil. So the rest is pretty solid, but the forearm is not controlled like it is with bull bags on the rest. I did try to simulate my field shooting by resting the barrel on a 6x6 at the range with one shot. It may have been a fluke, but I was slightly closer to my aim point than when I shot it with the bull bags. It was only an inch difference, which is well within the combination of gun and my shooting competency error.
It also seems odd to me that there was that much horizontal error in the field. I did do the same trigger job on this gun as the one with the .300 Win Mag barrel so trigger pull is light. Maybe it is the specific point on the barrel that I rested it on the ceil. One difference with the .300 Win Mag is that while both guns have muzzle brakes, the smokeless has a 360 degree conical break and the .300 Win Mag has a howitzer break. The forearm and butt stock are different. The .300 Win Mag has the standard synthetic stock and forearm and the smokeless has a pretty wooden stock.
There are a lot of moving parts here. You have variation in me loading each time by hand. Slight differences in powder charge and bullet seating. Differences in barrel fouling from shot to shot. Barrel heating when on the range (or even in the field last night). I did find that if I did not wait long enough between shots for barrel cooling with the .300 Win Mag, I got vertical stringing, so I was careful not to repeat this with the smokeless. I can see where much of this could lead to vertical error, but at the range, it is less than a couple inches at 100 yards.
Right now, I'm tempted to install shelves in my blinds where I can put bull bags, but since I don't always hunt from a blind, I really need to figure out what is going on for the long run. I was hoping for a 300 yard gun that was a 200 yard gun in my hands. The good news is that a smoke cloud had not been an issue.
Thanks,
Jack
Booner21
5 year old buck +
I would never rest a gun by the barrel esp the break action type, I would guess that is your issue. I built removable shelf’s in all of mine to allow the use of a sandbag cradle rest. Shoot that gun at the range resting on a 2x4 bet the issue returns. I also have used a death grip style tripod in them which works really well also.
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yoderjac
5 year old buck +
Thanks for the tips. I certainly realize the resting the barrel on the shelf impacts accuracy, but I've never had a firearm that introduced more than an inch or two of error at 100 yards which is well within the kill zone. It is the magnitude of error that surprised me, if this is the issue. Two clean misses is a lot of error. I did go to the range and took two shots. The first was with bull bags and I was off 2" at 100 yards. Most of it was vertical which could be load or fouling differences in velocity. I took a second shot resting the barrel on a 4x4 and was only off 1". Having said that, it was only one shot. It could have been a fluke at the range.
Eventually, I do plan to put shelves in my box blinds for longer distance shooting, but I didn't think I'd need that at 100 yards.
I have a temporary setup tonight with bull bags for a long distance shot. If I do get a shot opportunity, it should tell me something.
Thanks,
Jack
Booner21
5 year old buck +
They do make window ledge rests for sandbags would just have to hang the gun a little farther out the window even resting it on the forearm would be significantly better.
My set up works well I have Caldwell tack drivers in all my blinds. To build a shelf I place a 2x4 upright under the window sill with enough room to slide a piece of 3/4 plywood between. The plywood wedges under the window to hold it. Then the shelf is removable and only need one per blind and can move the rest to any window I need. It was cheap easy and I can still now hunt without fighting the shelf.
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My set up works well I have Caldwell tack drivers in all my blinds. To build a shelf I place a 2x4 upright under the window sill with enough room to slide a piece of 3/4 plywood between. The plywood wedges under the window to hold it. Then the shelf is removable and only need one per blind and can move the rest to any window I need. It was cheap easy and I can still now hunt without fighting the shelf.
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