Japanese Persimmon?

[Catscratch]

Any of you guys have any Japanese Persimmons? I'm looking to add to my crabs and pears this yr and thought they looked good. I'm in south central Kansas, would like to know if they are compatible here and if anyone has experience with them...

 

[Lot2Learn]

Since nobody has jumped in I'll pass along what I've read.

On the other site, there was a good thread talking about two challenges with Asian persimmon as it relates to wildlife. I'll pass that thread along rather than re-type its conclusions: https://www.qdma.com/forums/showthread.php?t=70659&highlight=asian

 

[Native Hunter]

I planted two from the Wildlife Group. Both of them died. Then this week when I walked the tree planting one had come back from the roots. It's still caged so we will see what happens.

PS: I've heard through the grapevine that the fruit may keep hanging on longer than we would like. I need to research that more.

 

[Gto One]

I have a few fuyu trees planted in the yard. If you are going to plant them, do it for your consumption and not the deer. They taste great. I eat them hard, like a crisp apple. FUYU'S are non-astringent. In NC they are ripe before native persimmons, and they do not fall off the tree. My trees are about 6 years old, and are still not taller than me. We had a late frost this spring, and i did not get them covered, so this year i only had 6 persimmons from both trees. Last year each tree had about 20 persimmons.

 

[Catscratch]

Thanks for the replies. I didn't know that they don't drop but I still might get one as the kids would love it. Lots of reading with that link to the other site! I got through most of it last night. It makes me want to start grafting but I don't have natives so rootstock wouldn't be easy like it is in some places.

 

[Jordan Selsor]

I have 2 fuyu's also from the wildlife group. I have yet to plant them. Hope to this fall. I got them more or less as a novelty. Thought it would be fun to graft a few of their scions to native non producing trees which I have allot of. I look forward to trying them some day

 

[SURGICAL GRADE]

Bump- any other experiences with them?

 

[Bc4abc]

i bought one by mistake last year...i thought it was a native persimmon and it was mixed in among the others i had bought ..a fuyu...anyway i went ahead and planted it but it has not grown much and seems to be lagging behind the natives as far as growth goes quite a bit..... thats all i got

 

[H20fwler]

Where is a good place to buy native persimmons that can survive in the north?

 

[Bc4abc]

Chestnut hill has native late drop females

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[yoderjac]

Bump- any other experiences with them?

The problem with Japanese and Oriental persimmons is that they don't fall from the tree. Some are not astringent and these don't have protection before they are ripe. In both cases, climbing critters have first dibs over deer. American persimmons are a better bet. They are all astringent and most fall from the tree providing access for deer. The only way deer can get to Japanese or Oriental persimmons is to get them off the tree directly. This means you need a small tree and have potential damage as deer are trying to get them. American are a better bet.

There is one hybrid called Nikita's Gift that I've seen conflicting reports on. The are astringent. Some folks that have them say they do fall from the tree and others say they don't. I'm not sure what the determining factor is, but I decided to experiment with them. I grafted them to some American persimmon seedlings I started from seed a few years ago. It is still too early to tell how they will perform.

Japanese/Oriental persimmons are not a bad tree for wildlife in general, but there are better choices if deer are the target species.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[TreeDaddy]

I am in the process of flagging all native persimmons for potential grafting next spring

Also found the "mother" of all persimmons on a neighbor site for scions

bill

 

[yoderjac]

I am in the process of flagging all native persimmons for potential grafting next spring

Also found the "mother" of all persimmons on a neighbor site for scions

bill

Sounds like you are in for some fun next spring! Good luck!

 

[SURGICAL GRADE]

The problem with Japanese and Oriental persimmons is that they don't fall from the tree. Some are not astringent and these don't have protection before they are ripe. In both cases, climbing critters have first dibs over deer. American persimmons are a better bet. They are all astringent and most fall from the tree providing access for deer. The only way deer can get to Japanese or Oriental persimmons is to get them off the tree directly. This means you need a small tree and have potential damage as deer are trying to get them. American are a better bet.

There is one hybrid called Nikita's Gift that I've seen conflicting reports on. The are astringent. Some folks that have them say they do fall from the tree and others say they don't. I'm not sure what the determining factor is, but I decided to experiment with them. I grafted them to some American persimmon seedlings I started from seed a few years ago. It is still too early to tell how they will perform.

Japanese/Oriental persimmons are not a bad tree for wildlife in general, but there are better choices if deer are the target species.

Thanks,

Jack

I appreciate the thoughtful response, Jack. I was contemplating adding a couple of them next spring but think I'll table that idea for now.

 

[dawghall]

Has anyone had luck with any improved American varieties (or Asian/crosses if they drop from the tree)? I'm looking at England's Orchard, and he has alot of varieties. I'm just trying to get some that produce heavily on the largest trees (most pounds of fruit per tree).

 

[yoderjac]

I replied in your PM because I saw it first, but I'm posting it here for others benefit as well:

I don't worry about attraction with persimmons. I worry about having them available for deer. For me, there are two important factors, they must be astringent and they must fall from the tree. This generally excludes Kaki and Lotus (non-American) persimmons. If persimmons are not astringent, climbing animals will get to them in the tree before they are ripe. The astringency protects them while they are developing. Once they ripen, they get sweet and fall to the ground where deer have equal access to them.

The only non-American persimmon I'm experimenting with is Nakita's Gift. It is a hybrid cross between Virginia and Kaki. It is astringent and I've seen conflicting reports as to whether it falls from the tree.

Beyond those two factors, the next thing I look for is when they ripen and fall and how prolific they are. Typically anything with "Deer" in the name is a prolific tree whose fruit make it less marketable to people. It is marketed as a deer tree but are no more or less useful for deer than other varieties. You will sometimes pay a premium for them because of deer in the name.

I like to have persimmons falling across a wide range. Most of the named varieties are early persimmons. I'm using a combination of commercial varieties along with native persimmons I've traded with folks over the years that hang much later in the season and some until spring.

Cliff has responded to my emails in the past but he can be slow. You might have more success calling in the evening after he is back from the field. He is a great guy and quite knowledgeable about persimmons.

I have native trees. I have planted a few trees, but most of my trees have been bark grafting to native trees.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[Catscratch]

I emailed Englands several times last yr and he was very helpful. I was very disappointed in how he did business though. Not someone I'll order from again.

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[bigbendmarine]

On the subject of oriental varities hanging on tight to limbs and the climbing critters taking advantage of the fact, I've got 4 orientals planted old enough that they are now producing. They're planted close to my home (within 60' feet or so) as they are my wife's favorite fruit and grow well here in North FL. Ours are non-anstringent varities and are sweet when still apple firm though even get a bit sweeter if you can let them get nearly tomato soft (my wife prefers them this way)... but if I let them ripen a day past the initial firm / turning orange / starting-to-sweeten stage possums and coons wipe 'em out. Had a young tree with about 30 tennis-ball sized fruits robbed of ALL the fruit in a single night.

Share this to support what Jack's said about preferring natives for deer... though hope if he finds the mixed genetic Nikita's Gift actually drops he'll share an update as I would love to plant a few if it does.

 

[yoderjac]

It is really going to take a long time for me to tell how Nikita's gift will work out. I had hoped to bark graft some larger native trees with NG scions, but it did not work out. The scions go moldy and none grew. I think this must be from the Kaki heritage because I stored them the same way as I store American persimmon scions and have never had a problem. The other possibility was that they were infected with the mold spores at the source.

So, I took a different route. I grew out persimmon seeds in rootmakers. In the second season, I woke them up early and got my source to send more NG scions. (http://www.habitat-talk.com/index.p...d-persimmon-transferred-from-qdma-forum.5565/) I bench grafted them as soon as they arrived while they were very fresh.

I eventually planted these trees in the field. This thread has a picture of one today: http://www.habitat-talk.com/index.php?threads/persimmon-question.11460/ It was one that I tubed. Those that I did not tube grew much more bush like. In both cases, deer can still reach the persimmons in the trees. The problem is that deer can really destroy small trees to get the persimmons. So far, I've been lucky with NG but I've had a couple other small trees hit pretty hard.

Now that I have a local source for scions, I hope to try grafting some native trees too high for deer to reach. If I happen to see one on the ground at some point, I'll know they fall. If I don't see one on the ground and they just disappear, I won't know if they fell and were eaten or if they were eaten off the tree.

I walked by that tree shown in the picture on the thread I just referenced last week. They were still hard as a rock, so I'm sure they are not ripe yet and since they are astringent, nothing has touched them yet.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[Rit]

I planted a fuyu last year from the TWG and it grew like wild. It was completely defoliated by deer and came back with a vengeance. There is no doubt that it would have been really impressive growth had it not been set back.

The fuyu is a non-astringent variety and everything I have read indicates the fruit hangs on the tree until November and December. It’s easy to critter proof trees so that isn’t a concern. I expect great things from this tree next year and I ordered 2 more to go along side it. Buy all indicators seems these trees like to fruit early. I have yet to find anything that stated a fuyu doesn’t drop from the tree.