How would you trim these old ones?

[bigboreblr]

Been at this house since 2017. Used to have about 25 of these pretty beat up old apples trees. They made enough to trick a few deer into bow range in my backyard. I have yanked out all but 5. Did some light pruning on one or two, but seems all the decent stuff is vertical whips.

I've tried to be easy on them, doing light pruning. Getting new whips, dead stuff, and crossing branches cut. I have alot of new trees to replace old ones, so I \'m less concern about killing them with too much trimming. I will be topworking one of them to make some more scion material for next year. Also grafting some material off one or two of them. Mix of mcintosh, macoun, and red delicious on M111. They're had 2 bad years. Last summer, the last tree responded from pruning, but the dry spell was so bad, any apples all dropped in late july despite almost daily watering.

 

[Telemark]

I would keep pruning them, but only in the summer. And don't remove more than 20% of the tree in any given year. It will take a few years to get a good shape to them.

 

[Teeder]

Why only in summer?

I've tried to prune trees like this in the past with poor results. I'm obviously doing something wrong.
Watching with great interest.

 

[Tree Spud]

A couple of thoughts ... before pruning, you could add survey tape to the main horizontal branching stems that alternate create a upword scaffold. Then step back and look to see if the tree has a balanced shape with these primary branches.

I would start to remove any branches that are crossing another branch or growing inward.

You want to open up the center of the tree to allow sunlight.

On the horizontal branches, start to remove stems that shoot upward or downward . Avoid removing the small fruiting stems.

On tree 1, on the right side, you have several large stems with poor crotch angles that are parallel to other limbs. See green in pic below. I would remove them.

 

[Derek Reese 29]

Just be careful I tried to "trim" an old apple in my front yard last year and was a little too aggressive.
The trimming seemed to make the tree look better, but then it died. I guess using a chainsaw was a bit overkill...
I also think I took too much of the living stuff and I pruned in the late winter.

 

[4wanderingeyes]

My thought with old trees is to don’t try to change them much. Clean out dead, touching branches, then slowly cut out the bigger branches that grow inward. Old big trees need lots of leaves to draw in sunlight to survive. Who cares if they look ugly, just trim them so they produce apples.

 

[Bowsnbucks]

From all I've read from a variety of knowledgeable sources (universities, pro orchardists), prune no more than 1/3 of a tree's canopy in any given year. It needs leaves for photosynthesis. To make blossoms, the limbs need sunlight. Look for limbs that grow right above other ones, putting shade on the ones below. Prune out limbs that shade other limbs - or if the ones BELOW the "shader" are small & spindly, prune those out. The idea being, you want to get as much sunlight into the center of the tree, on as many limbs, as possible.

In the pics, I'd prune off those water sprouts (thin, vertically-growing shoots) from the trunks, and those growing off the bottom limbs. They're energy robbers from the rest of the tree. As others above have said, prune out crossing, rubbing, or parallel limbs. Dead stuff comes out for sure. Stand back and look to see if you have balance in the trees. Prune out crowded, "clusters" of limbs, giving remaining limbs sunlight and air circulation.

Take your time and don't prune away more than 1/3 of the canopy per year. It may take a couple years to get a tree looking decent again for production of apples, but too much too soon may kill the tree - or stimulate it to produce LOADS of new vegetative growth (new water sprouts, mainly), which will only require more pruning later. Don't cut off any fruiting spurs - short, stubby appendages growing off limbs. Those are where your apples will form. Look up "apple fruiting spurs" on any apple tree / fruit tree site for identification. Be patient and know they won't be "fixed" in one year. Good luck with them.

 

[Prof.Kent]

Pruning OLD trees back can stress the tree A LOT.
I only did it once. The tree died. In my defense, the tree seemed to be dying anyway and there was a lot of dead wood already.

 

[cavey]

Pruning OLD trees back can stress the tree A LOT.
I only did it once. The tree died. In my cdefense, the tree seemed to be dying anyway and there was a lot of dead wood already.

I was going to say something along those lines when it comes to pruning old unattended too trees. Usually when we go after an old tree it is because we finally noticed it was doing poorly and its already kind of too late... When I see a tree with a ton of water shoots or straight upward growing branches I tend to think what is happening to the tree that it thinks it needs to try and save itself with all those new rapid growing branches, Its a red flag for me - Im thinking an injured stressed or diseased tree.

It does not take long for a tree to get over taken with new growth and poor crotch angles, prune a tree hard then dont get back to it for 3-4 years and that often what I have...


For sure go after any diseased wood, try and open it up a bit, since you have a tree with no fencing you can try and prune and stake and weight/pull down some of those smaller lateral branches a bit to improve branching angles.... you have a lot of little branches/shoots that can be trimmed out.

20-30% 0f total volume is what I go for but 10-20% might be better ratio for the first hard pruning this winter... I would focus on a good clean up, not too brutal of a hack up... make for a 3-4 year plan on getting it back into some form of a tree you want. Ugly trees produce apples - tight crotch angles are one of your most important issues that comes back to haunt a tree years down the line. At some point you have to live with them or take a massive cut to the tree and gamble.

 

[bigboreblr]

One thing tht has made me shy away from pruning in the winter is you dont know what's dead or just looks old. There is a grey area in some branches. That's one thing thats better about summer pruning.

 

[Buckly]

I have hundreds and hundreds of trees that look like those. If you’re so inclined you can cut off dead wood. Other than that I’d leave them alone. Not worth the effort in my opinion, they’re beyond pruning reform. I’ve found old trees kind of self prune themselves.

 

[Telemark]

Why only in summer?

I've tried to prune trees like this in the past with poor results. I'm obviously doing something wrong.
Watching with great interest.

Pruning in winter will cause them to throw a lot of bushy growth. Pruning in summer is less likely to cause unwanted growth, and more likely to encourage fruiting.

 

[Teeder]

Pruning in winter will cause them to throw a lot of bushy growth. Pruning in summer is less likely to cause unwanted growth, and more likely to encourage fruiting.

That's exactly what I ended up with.

 

[bigboreblr]

Same here, thought additional watering and fertilizer was the culprit though. could of been all of that.

I tend to agree very old trees are a lost cause. However, kept the best 3 or 4. Between last fall and this spring. Probably have 30 replacements. Hopefully the voles dont have too much of a picnic.

One I have a portable 12ft ladder stand i put up for the season. It puts me right in the V fork of one of those trees. Can't believe how dumb some deer have been in that open spot over the years. May be a little easier pruning my cover.

 

[bigboreblr]

Out of trees like that, whats the best scion material?

Looking to graft 4 or 5 of these on rootstock. Got M111, B118, dolgo, transcendent, and Willis calls wild apple. I also got a bunch of antonovka rootstock I planted last spring too. Guessing 40 rootstocks. Ain't gonna be alot of trout fishin' this spring for sure between that and about 18 or so grafted pear, apple, and peach trees.

 

[Bowsnbucks]

I know nothing about bud-grafting or bark-grafting - but for scion wood for cleft or whip & tongue grafting, I was taught to get NEW wood that's 1 year old from the previous year's growing season. So for instance, on a water sprout - look from the tip backward to find a wrinkled "ring" around the water sprout on the bark. That "ring" is the spot where last year's new growth started. You want the part of the water sprout from that ring up to the tip.

You can create more good scion material for NEXT year by pruning off water sprouts on limbs, and leaving a very short stub there where the water sprout was. A new water sprout (or several) will grow from that pruned stub and you'll have NEW, 1-year-old scion material for further grafting if you want it.

 

[bigboreblr]

Tempted to stretch the 1 year mark with a crossbow crab. Wanted to see if it likes dolgo or not. Got a double leader from whitetail crab over the fall I will prune to a central leader. Got like a 5ft tall whip to snip off.

 

[cavey]

I've found in the end the best time to prune is..... simply when I have time to

 

[Bowsnbucks]

Tempted to stretch the 1 year mark with a crossbow crab.

I've read on a few grafting sites that scion OLDER than 1 years can work - but the odds of success go down somewhat. Give it a shot - it may take and grow for you.