How to no-till (tnm) multiple types of plot species?

[eclipseman]

I have been reading lots about No-till types of plantings (throw and mow or throw and rolls). I am most interested in planting multiple species of seeds in one plot. The issue I'm not understanding is how do you plant everything at one time when deer may prefer them at different times of the season? For example, What I would do when I would plant via tilling is I would plant the field with brassicas sometime around now and then I would add in cereal rye/oats sometime around labor day (especially to fill areas that did not grow well with brassica). BUT if I'm planting a mixture of brassicas with rye/oats, if I do the TnM style planting now, the brassicas will be great but the oats/rye will get large and the deer wont like them by the time hunting season comes around. Do you all TnM the brassica first, and then come labor day throw the cereal grains over top everything hoping they would germinate (which I have my doubts)? Thanks!

 

[Tree Spud]

Plant brassicas/turnips now, broadcast Winter Rye in early September.

Wouldn't waste my time on oats as i have poor luck with broadcast/no till germination. Won't grow and reach seed head stage if planted in Sept and will also die first frost.

I would broadcast red or white clover with the WR as it will breen up in spring along with the WR.

 

[wiscwhip]

So YOUR deer have came out and told YOU specifically that they will stop eating your rye and oats if you plant them now? Or is this "deer won't eat grains if you plant them too early because they get rank" something you have read or been told on the Interweb? For the most part, this is a wives tale, nothing more. That said, I do not deny that in some cases, it has been observed that usage of small grains has decreased as the grains get older and larger, but that is no different than the guys who observe their deer not using brassicas and guys 2 miles away will tell you their deer eat them to the dirt. YOU will never know for sure how YOUR deer will react to early planted grains unless you try it for yourself.

 

[eclipseman]

So YOUR deer have came out and told YOU specifically that they will stop eating your rye and oats if you plant them now? Or is this "deer won't eat grains if you plant them too early because they get rank" something you have read or been told on the Interweb? For the most part, this is a wives tale, nothing more. That said, I do not deny that in some cases, it has been observed that usage of small grains has decreased as the grains get older and larger, but that is no different than the guys who observe their deer not using brassicas and guys 2 miles away will tell you their deer eat them to the dirt. YOU will never know for sure how YOUR deer will react to early planted grains unless you try it for yourself.

Yes actually the deer did "talk" to me last year! I planted them end of july last year. The deer were in there thick until the grains were about 8inches tall and the deer stopped and did not go back in that plot to feed. so I must kindly disagree to first hand experience!

 

[wiscwhip]

Yes actually the deer did "talk" to me last year! I planted them end of july last year. The deer were in there thick until the grains were about 8inches tall and the deer stopped and did not go back in that plot to feed. so I must kindly disagree to first hand experience!

Perfect, you tried it for yourself and that is the most important "rule" you can follow. In our neck of the woods, we had no other ag around and no one else planted plots, so our deer browsed small grains all fall, no matter how tall they got. First hand experience through experimentation is the best and only real way to know what your deer will do in any given situation. Since you have that information in hand, I would follow your instincts and plant the brassica now, and YES, plant the grains around Labor Day. This will be the next "step" in your process of figuring out how the T-n-M plotting process works for YOU, because in the end, their is no right or wrong way to do this, you just have to keep experimenting and see which parts of the process work on your ground with your deer. As for what Tree Spud suggested, he is correct that the oats will be very short term for you and I also agree that throwing in a few pounds of a medium red clover(providing you are not looking to establish a long term perennial clover plot in that location) is a great addition.

 

[scott44]

I have been reading lots about No-till types of plantings (throw and mow or throw and rolls). I am most interested in planting multiple species of seeds in one plot. The issue I'm not understanding is how do you plant everything at one time when deer may prefer them at different times of the season? For example, What I would do when I would plant via tilling is I would plant the field with brassicas sometime around now and then I would add in cereal rye/oats sometime around labor day (especially to fill areas that did not grow well with brassica). BUT if I'm planting a mixture of brassicas with rye/oats, if I do the TnM style planting now, the brassicas will be great but the oats/rye will get large and the deer wont like them by the time hunting season comes around. Do you all TnM the brassica first, and then come labor day throw the cereal grains over top everything hoping they would germinate (which I have my doubts)? Thanks!

I do it the same way as tilling, I use strips in one big plot and if I have bare spots I'll over seed with something like rye/oat/clover. My June planted sorghum mix plot is like a 12 way cover crop mix and they come to it all year there is always something in there that they like.

 

[eclipseman]

I do it the same way as tilling, I use strips in one big plot and if I have bare spots I'll over seed with something like rye/oat/clover. My June planted sorghum mix plot is like a 12 way cover crop mix and they come to it all year there is always something in there that they like.

I am not sure what you mean about "strips" in one big plot. Can you please elaborate more on this?

 

[eclipseman]

Perfect, you tried it for yourself and that is the most important "rule" you can follow. In our neck of the woods, we had no other ag around and no one else planted plots, so our deer browsed small grains all fall, no matter how tall they got. First hand experience through experimentation is the best and only real way to know what your deer will do in any given situation. Since you have that information in hand, I would follow your instincts and plant the brassica now, and YES, plant the grains around Labor Day. This will be the next "step" in your process of figuring out how the T-n-M plotting process works for YOU, because in the end, their is no right or wrong way to do this, you just have to keep experimenting and see which parts of the process work on your ground with your deer. As for what Tree Spud suggested, he is correct that the oats will be very short term for you and I also agree that throwing in a few pounds of a medium red clover(providing you are not looking to establish a long term perennial clover plot in that location) is a great addition.

I guess my question is, if I'm throwing and mowing or rolling now with brassica, and then throwing cereal rye later...how do I assure the cereal rye has good seed to soil contact since the thatch layer will have already been created?

 

[scott44]

I am not sure what you mean about "strips" in one big plot. Can you please elaborate more on this?

Here's a pic from one of my stands over looking a plot. I have planted strips in this one big plot starting with the bottom right working to top left I have a strip of clover and strip of cereal grains a strip of brassicas another cereal grain strip and another brassica strip. Tilling or mowing or rolling I do a strip of whatever I'm planting at that time and leave the rest for later.

 

[Gator]

If you do the strips as suggested, wait to mow the strip where the grains will be until after you plant that strip (around Labor Day I believe you said).

 

[wiscwhip]

I guess my question is, if I'm throwing and mowing or rolling now with brassica, and then throwing cereal rye later...how do I assure the cereal rye has good seed to soil contact since the thatch layer will have already been created?

To be frank, sure, it can be a hit or miss proposition sometimes. "Real" farmers have failures all the time, as food plotters, why should we expect any higher success than the guys who do this for a living? In those situations, we usually would increase the seeding rate to the maximum recommended or even up to 30-50% more than the high end, especially if we had extenuating circumstances like heavy thatch or very dry conditions leading up to planting(very dry conditions happened more often than not for us). Rye will germinate on a wet rock, and once the radicle has emerged from the seed, it will reach for the soil until it either makes contact with the dirt or dries out completely and dies. Heavy thatch usually helps hold moisture, so this helps with keeping the seedlings going until they can reach the surface of the soil, even if they are "hung up" in the thatch layer. This is one situation where being flexible on your planting date can be a real help. If you can seed it right before a torrential rainfall, the rain will knock that seed through the thatch enough for it to "catch". Can it fail, sure, but that said, many more guys have success with this method than those I have heard that have had a total failure, so there must be something to it or guys wouldn't keep doing it the same way you are intending to proceed. This is another reason why oats are not the best choice for this type of situation, they are much more finicky in how they need to be planted to ensure success. Oats typically like to have a bit of dirt over them or at least be in heavy contact with the top soil layer, like through cultipacking or dragging, which cereal rye does not require.

 

[eclipseman]

To be frank, sure, it can be a hit or miss proposition sometimes. "Real" farmers have failures all the time, as food plotters, why should we expect any higher success than the guys who do this for a living? In those situations, we usually would increase the seeding rate to the maximum recommended or even up to 30-50% more than the high end, especially if we had extenuating circumstances like heavy thatch or very dry conditions leading up to planting(very dry conditions happened more often than not for us). Rye will germinate on a wet rock, and once the radicle has emerged from the seed, it will reach for the soil until it either makes contact with the dirt or dries out completely and dies. Heavy thatch usually helps hold moisture, so this helps with keeping the seedlings going until they can reach the surface of the soil, even if they are "hung up" in the thatch layer. This is one situation where being flexible on your planting date can be a real help. If you can seed it right before a torrential rainfall, the rain will knock that seed through the thatch enough for it to "catch". Can it fail, sure, but that said, many more guys have success with this method than those I have heard that have had a total failure, so there must be something to it or guys wouldn't keep doing it the same way you are intending to proceed. This is another reason why oats are not the best choice for this type of situation, they are much more finicky in how they need to be planted to ensure success. Oats typically like to have a bit of dirt over them or at least be in heavy contact with the top soil layer, like through cultipacking or dragging, which cereal rye does not require.

Ah! Thanks so much for the info! Very helpful.

 

[wiscwhip]

Ah! Thanks so much for the info! Very helpful.

No problem, that is why we are all here! Many of us had these same questions when we were starting out. Best advice I can give, gather as much info as you can and don't be afraid to "section off" small parts of your plots to try new things. Each guy has certain "tweeks" that work better for them than other methods and you won't know what those are without trying something new once in a while. We would set aside a few small (like 20' by 20') areas of our plots every year to try new seeds or new methods of planting, just so we could see if we could improve on what we were already doing and to find out if certain things could be grown on our acidic beach. Lots of things you would never know unless you tried them for yourself.

 

[yoderjac]

I have been reading lots about No-till types of plantings (throw and mow or throw and rolls). I am most interested in planting multiple species of seeds in one plot. The issue I'm not understanding is how do you plant everything at one time when deer may prefer them at different times of the season? For example, What I would do when I would plant via tilling is I would plant the field with brassicas sometime around now and then I would add in cereal rye/oats sometime around labor day (especially to fill areas that did not grow well with brassica). BUT if I'm planting a mixture of brassicas with rye/oats, if I do the TnM style planting now, the brassicas will be great but the oats/rye will get large and the deer wont like them by the time hunting season comes around. Do you all TnM the brassica first, and then come labor day throw the cereal grains over top everything hoping they would germinate (which I have my doubts)? Thanks!

There are lots of ways to do it depending on what you are trying to accomplish. For example, when I was planting soybeans and they canopied, I would plant a cover crop of PTT, Crimson Clover, and WR. I would simply surface broadcast these. They RR beans had plenty of bare ground under the canopy. So, I would surface broadcast the PTT just before the beans would begin to yellow. The seed would fall to the ground and germinate. Growth would be slow until the soybean leaves began to yellow and die letting sun in. Then I would broadcast the crimson clover. I'd generally wait until a couple weeks before our archery season the broadcast the Winter Rye. This would allow the turnips to get larger bulbs.

Here is how it worked for deer. Since my WR was planted late, it was small and succulent during most of the season making it the main attractant. The crimson clover would germinate but not do a lot. The turnips would take off, but deer generally ignore them in the fall when they have lots of other food. Once we get a hard frost or two, the turnips begin to push sugar into the leaves and they become more attractive to deer. The deer now primarily hit the turnip forage. As other food sources dry up going into winter, the turnip tubers become a good winter food source. If we have a bountiful mast crop, they are only used lightly, but if we have a poor mast crop they are hammered. Come the following spring, the WR and crimson clover take off. The WR is only attractive for a short period in the spring before

This is only one way to do it. Also keep in mind that different crops grow at different rates and have different peak periods even when planted at the same time. When I was strip planting, I would see deer ignore one crop and hammer another and a few weeks later do the reverse. So there is no problem planting a mix all together. You can fine tune things as in my example above, but you need to understand the characteristics of your crops. If I had planted the PTT too heavy and waited to long, it's canopy would have precluded the other crops from growing in that example.

Over time, I've abandon most strip planting for mixes. I find plants complement one another and there is always something in the field that is attractive. You just need to find the right balance in a mix so plants complement one another, grow well in your region and soils, and service deer. For attraction plots, it is only the attraction that matters. For those operation on sufficient scale doing feeding plots, the key is filling the gaps that nature leaves.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[SmallChunk]

You are over thinking it, eclipse. Plant your brassica, mow/roll. Wait until late August/sept and broadcast rye. Done until next spring.

 

[Catscratch]

Either do strips or just broadcast into your brassica's before a big rain (at the right time of yr). Go heavy on your broadcast rate if it's into a standing crop that you don't want to mow.

 

[eclipseman]

There are lots of ways to do it depending on what you are trying to accomplish. For example, when I was planting soybeans and they canopied, I would plant a cover crop of PTT, Crimson Clover, and WR. I would simply surface broadcast these. They RR beans had plenty of bare ground under the canopy. So, I would surface broadcast the PTT just before the beans would begin to yellow. The seed would fall to the ground and germinate. Growth would be slow until the soybean leaves began to yellow and die letting sun in. Then I would broadcast the crimson clover. I'd generally wait until a couple weeks before our archery season the broadcast the Winter Rye. This would allow the turnips to get larger bulbs.

Here is how it worked for deer. Since my WR was planted late, it was small and succulent during most of the season making it the main attractant. The crimson clover would germinate but not do a lot. The turnips would take off, but deer generally ignore them in the fall when they have lots of other food. Once we get a hard frost or two, the turnips begin to push sugar into the leaves and they become more attractive to deer. The deer now primarily hit the turnip forage. As other food sources dry up going into winter, the turnip tubers become a good winter food source. If we have a bountiful mast crop, they are only used lightly, but if we have a poor mast crop they are hammered. Come the following spring, the WR and crimson clover take off. The WR is only attractive for a short period in the spring before

This is only one way to do it. Also keep in mind that different crops grow at different rates and have different peak periods even when planted at the same time. When I was strip planting, I would see deer ignore one crop and hammer another and a few weeks later do the reverse. So there is no problem planting a mix all together. You can fine tune things as in my example above, but you need to understand the characteristics of your crops. If I had planted the PTT too heavy and waited to long, it's canopy would have precluded the other crops from growing in that example.

Over time, I've abandon most strip planting for mixes. I find plants complement one another and there is always something in the field that is attractive. You just need to find the right balance in a mix so plants complement one another, grow well in your region and soils, and service deer. For attraction plots, it is only the attraction that matters. For those operation on sufficient scale doing feeding plots, the key is filling the gaps that nature leaves.

Thanks,

Jack

I will be planting into standing buckwheat which is currently headed out with seeds. The canopy is pretty thick (I went overboard on the buckwheat thinking it wouldn’t all germinate.) anyways, someone else commented on just throwing the brassica now, roll or mow and then just broadcast cereal rye when I want to and that cerea rye will basically grow anywhere so I’ll give that a try I guess.

 

[eclipseman]

You are over thinking it, eclipse. Plant your brassica, mow/roll. Wait until late August/sept and broadcast rye. Done until next spring.

I don’t like wasting money or time which is why I ask here before doing so. Sorry if that comes off as over thinking it.

 

[yoderjac]

I will be planting into standing buckwheat which is currently headed out with seeds. The canopy is pretty thick (I went overboard on the buckwheat thinking it wouldn’t all germinate.) anyways, someone else commented on just throwing the brassica now, roll or mow and then just broadcast cereal rye when I want to and that cerea rye will basically grow anywhere so I’ll give that a try I guess.

You might want to add your location to your profile. "Now" may be fine for some areas. In my area, I'll wait until early to mid-august before planting PTT into my buckwheat.

 

[MickT]

Top dress it with wheat. It’ll find it’s way through if the brassicas aren’t too far ahead.

I’m changing up my seeding regime. I’m not as concerned about bulbs so I plan so put my annual clovers first(mid-late August) and follow with brassicas and wheat over the top a month later. Last year, I showed clover and brassicas together but my brassicas got too far ahead of my clover. When the brassicas winter killed, they were 10”+ and thick, and laid down and smothered most of my clover.

I’m in TN so your mileage may vary.


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