Give me your thoughts...

[Turkey Creek]

Here is a picture of the ground in my timbered areas. Pretty much closed canopy in most areas. I walked part of it today and marked the trees I want to definitely keep, mostly mature oaks. There are not alot of oaks, probably only a couple dozen trees in a 15 acre area. Anyways I am going to create some bedding areas this Winter, going to girdle some trees and drop some junk trees to thicken up some pockets. In those areas where the sunlight is going to drastically increase what would you do? I can experiment a little so something may work better than others. Right now I see very little evidence of broadleaf forbs of any type. Understory is some Greenbriar, Bush Honeysuckle, and Buckbrush. I will start working on killing out the Bush Honeysuckle before long. Would you just open up the canopy and see what happens? Spray and kill off all the grass that currently exists, burn those small areas and then overseed with some kind of forb mix? Spray and kill off the grass and then lightly disturb the soil where I can? I just dont know if there is much native forb seed bank that is dormant in this area.

 

[FarmerDan]

Just shooting from the hip, me being here in Virginia and you being there in Kansas....it probably won't be worth much. I think the soil structure and characteristics are going to be big determinants of what might happen. Wet or dry? Depth to water table. Soil parent rock. I think I would dig a hole or two just to see what kind of seed bed you are dealing with. Again me being in the dark, I (or you) might find the soil type and description of the same provided by NRCS Web Soil Survey useful ( worthless). Maybe consult a forester...not to make too big a deal out of it. I'm just not sure how to interpret your pictures. Me, before I started working the situation - as opposed to natural succession - I would want more answers. But, I'm not sure of the right questions!

So, for what it's worth here's the kind of stuff you would find on the web soil survey. From my readings of your posts I bet you could make something of this info. This is just an illustration:

 

[Turkey Creek]

I have had the local forester out a couple of times to look at the property. Basically just from the TSI perspective in terms of trees to leave and how much too thin to basically start getting more reproduction of the more valuable tree species. That is good and all, but in these bedding areas that I would like to create it would be nice to get a bump in forbs and more woody browse species that can tolerate some decent browse pressure. I don't thing that there are necessarily a lot of deer bedding on my place because there isnt a lot of desireable browse in areas they might bed. They arent going to leave the bedding areas to go feed in a food plot multiple times a day. Not opposed to planting some woody browse species but cant afford the time and money to protect them enough to probably get them established.

 

[FarmerDan]

Not to put too fine a point on it, but I guess my thought was to do nothing and let natural succession go its way. But, I don't know if what natural succession will offer has any value to your situation. I thought maybe looking at soil and the associated list of plant species adapted to your specific soil type would offer some clues. For example, If the soil is wet, hydric soil, then you probably won't come close to getting the kind of cover and browse you might want. If it's shallow and droughty that's another kettle of possibilities. Deep and rich? I don't know. Just a Friday night joy ride!

 

[BenA]

I'd think you'd keep yourself busy enough with killing the bad stuff that comes in after doing your thinning. I would do a more of a kill, see what comes in, then kill what you don't want.

 

[Buckly]

You mentioned something about burning. I think a good burn usually brings out some Forbs

 

[b116757]

I crown release all my walnut and oaks it really produces a lot of undergrowth promotes oak regeneration in those areas and acorn production absolutely the best thing I’ve done at my home place to increase deer utilization. Most of my kill trees were not huge so the few that where of good size I’ve either milled into lumber of cut into firewood. Local pallet mill operators usually have a logger that will take out shit trees but they won’t want to fool with little stuff that you’re likely going to have to do yourself. I will likely do more crown release this winter sometimes I hack and squirt using a boys axe sometimes I use a chainsaw and girdle the trees but still use a chemical to kill the stump usually Tordon RTU or a home brew stump killer.

 

[bigboreblr]

A few spots here n there of green briar cant be too bad to do. Find spots of the forbs you want, rake under them. Move thrm to new spot. After a burn maybe drag some tires over it

I lime and fertilize my oaks at home.

 

[omicron1792]

This is my favorite stuff turkey.

First of all read Craig Harper forest stand improvement.

Forest Stand Improvement guide

Dr. Craig Harper put out a publication on FSI. One of the best parts to the publication is the Appendix at the end. It rates different hardwoods on mast value, browse value, and hinge cut suitability. https://extension.tennessee.edu/publications/Documents/PB1885.pdf

habitat-talk.com

You could just do what he says and that’s it.

I like to keep some red spray paint on Polaris. It’s much easier to identify trees when leaves on. I know you’re a tree guy not as much issue. Then in late winter basal spray with 25% triclopyr 4 in diesel fuel. Bigger stuff girdle with small chsinsaw and spray girdle with 50% triclopyr 3, 40% water, 10% arsenal. I like using ketchup bottle to put in girdle. Can also use tordon rtu in their own squirt bottle.

I would then manage the understory. In June/July broadcast spray with 4oz/acre of imazapic and 48oz/acre of triclopyr. If is my favorite mix. It will save some varied grasses and kill most of what you don’t want in there. Then a month later burn. If you want (not necessary but I do), throw some native forb mix in fall after burn. Lots of forbs germinate in winter, or need cold stratification. I like to use imazapic tolerant mix so you can always come back with a spring spraying of 2-4oz/acre imazapic tomanage cool season grasses and such

From then in, just manage with burns or light discing or mowing based on your goals. If it’s bedding, burn every 3-5 years to keep in early successional. Yearly in fall mow some strips through or even better disc some strips through. Will favor forbs. Alternate areas of discinf, mowing, and burning to keep different levels of succession.

Once the first part is done management it will take one day of time for management a year. But the key is do the first steps to favor the stuff you want. Briars love fire too so If you only burn they will come back thicker than before.

 

[omicron1792]

This is cheapest easiest mix I have found that has grasses and forbs. 5 acres worth should be plenty to supplement the 15-20 acres you’re working on. These forbs are tolerant of 2-4oz/acre of imazapic.

You will need to thin enough to get 30-50% light to floor.

I’m not as big on gnarly thick stuff as others. However, you can let it get as thick as you want if you do this but will be full of some good stuff too. And can reset it with fire/discing/mowing if needed

Pheasants Forever

www.pfhabitatstore.com

 

[BenA]

One thing you may want to make a priority is to find and kill mother trees of invasives. Those big momma trees of species you don't want that rain down seeds onto your newly opened areas should be among the first to go. Trees I've had to deal with like this are tree of heaven and royal paulownia. They don't even have to be non-natives to be invasive. Sweetgums can wreak havoc. Killing those prolific producing mother trees can reap dividends later.

 

[b116757]

One thing you may want to make a priority is to find and kill mother trees of invasives. Those big momma trees of species you don't want that rain down seeds onto your newly opened areas should be among the first to go. Trees I've had to deal with like this are tree of heaven and royal paulownia. They don't even have to be non-natives to be invasive. Sweetgums can wreak havoc. Killing those prolific producing mother trees can reap dividends later.

I wage a constant war on honey locust bean droppers and female cedars trees. I know the deer use locust but the trees are horrible to deal with.

 

[Bowsnbucks]

BenAllgood above mentioned tree-of-heaven. If you have any of that, I can share this tip - basal bark spray them all in August or September with Garlon (triclopyr is the cheaper generic active ingredient.) We've had to deal with TOH for several years now. Do not cut them off with loppers and think you killed them. The root systems will sprout a dozen new TOH for every one you cut off & walked away from. Ask me how I found this out ....... Big mother, seed-producing TOH will have birds spreading TOH seed for you as well. Kill the big ones first.

 

[TreeDaddy]

I loaded the backpack sprayer with Remedy/ diesel and conducted a chinaberry massacre yesterday

bill

 

[Turkey Creek]

Right, I will kill off all the Honey Locust and Osage Orange for sure. Not alot of cedars in the general block of timber, the few scattered ones in the interior are pretty beat up from the bucks rubbing them. LOL Honeysuckle will be the toughest of the invasives to kill as it is everywhere around here. I think its best to just keep steady pressure on it to keep it in check, irradicating here is probably futile.

 

[bigboreblr]

You could grow some desired understory and sell some on your site too. Folks may buy that and dome fruit trees because of a unique offering of those varieties.

Seeing how easy red dogwood is, see folks selling them for $4 a piece. Sure theres better stuff like green briar

 

[Turkey Creek]

You could grow some desired understory and sell some on your site too. Folks may buy that and dome fruit trees because of a unique offering of those varieties.

Seeing how easy red dogwood is, see folks selling them for $4 a piece. Sure theres better stuff like green briar

We have Gray Dogwood here and I think the sight might be too dry for Red Dogwood in the timber. I might experiment with planting a little woody browse in pockets within the timber, but afraid I might have to fence it to get it established and don't want to invest that much time or money in that right now.

 

[bigboreblr]

We have Gray Dogwood here and I think the sight might be too dry for Red Dogwood in the timber. I might experiment with planting a little woody browse in pockets within the timber, but afraid I might have to fence it to get it established and don't want to invest that much time or money in that right now.

I cant fence my apple trees up north, so i put a mess of cut logs n branches arpund them. 100% survival year 1. Logging lease, but we got a easygoing manager. And theyre having problems retaining leases. No new hunters.

Red dogwood is not a good example. However, it is something I am growing and transplanting, either this fall or spring. Ninebark might be a good choice. Not sure if wintergreen is that great. mountain laurel and striped maple are common deer food in NY forests. NY state encon says red cedar is starvation food. All my cedars are nibbled on, even in the summer. Lots of wild plums they would like to browse too. Prairie willow was devoured pretty good at my home too. Tried ot make a privacy screen between the lawn and the food plot a few years back.

Not sure if I would drop trees and leave them there. Might burn the up. Prefer to have the option of brush hogging the area without a nightmare to drive through. IF that can be done with stumps around. I'd scrape the dirt around the big stumps, cut an X maybe soak in diesel once dry, then light a brush pile ontop of it.

Tractor has AG tires or R4's? AG tires can get punctured easier than R4's when brushing hogging succession areas.

 

[goatman]

Before wormers became popular farmers would feed red cedar branches to their livestock to control parasites. I had a red cedar on my pond dam that the deer would stop by often and nibble some in the mornings. They had plenty to eat and not starving. Some of those guys are just talking heads.