Fruit Tree Newb...need advice

[phil@thesidehill]

A good friend of mine purchased a little chunk of land about a year and half ago....he asked me to take the lead on improving habitat for deer hunting and wildlife in general. We spent the first fall, just hunting and observing without having done any improvements. We just wanted to get a feel for the place first. Then that winter we noticed that the deer pretty much moved out....no real quality food sources. We carved out a 1/4 acre food plot from a semi open area in the woods this spring/summer. we did get lime down on most of this area in the first summer, and then again this spring, and then again when we planted rye/clover in september. We got a decent stand. we also limed and seeded clover in some various other openings. Based on trail camera pics and hunting observations so far this season we have more deer using the property this fall than previously...they responded to new food sources. My friend has started looking into fruit trees...particularly crabs. I have very little experience with them and neither does he.

This property is in NE PA, USDA hardiness zone 5b, Wellsboro Channery Silt Loam soil. It is a "big woods" property and there is no real agriculture for several miles in any direction...a few small grass hayfields at about a mile away, but no row crops or anything like that. Looking at the aerials i dont detect any food plots in the neighborhood either. The property has a mix of mature timber, and thicker regrowth from a selective harvest completed by the previous owner about a decade ago. Cover seems sufficient for the time being, but food seems to be the lowest hole in the bucket...especially during the fall/winter (hunting season). This is also big time bear country...as of last week we have more uniquely identifiable bears than we do bucks....but they arent as frequently captured on camera as the deer are.

We would like to add some crab apple plantings to the margin of the existing food plot, and we have another opening that we plan on expanding this winter/spring for an additional plot, and/or fruit trees. Obviously, we would like to have some crabs that would be dropping from October-December....and we would like to start to see fruit sooner rather than later.

What are our options for getting some crabs going? Seedlings, seed, grafting, etc....we basically have no existing knowledge base to draw from here. What kind of light requirements do we need to acheive....the place is pretty much all woods so we have clear openings or expand existing small openings. what varieties should we be concentrating on for our hardiness zone, soil type, desired drop timing, time from planting to seeing fruit, protection from bear, deer, rodents? In summary, what would some of your Fruit Tree Guru's do in this situation?

I was also wondering if anybody has some links to good reference material on the subject....i would like to start building a solid knowledge base on the subject.

 

[chummer]

Same deal, 2zones colder and 4 years ahead of you. Your biggest challenge will be sun light. I have tried putting trees in all kinds of location. While the ones with a few hours of light are doing good, the ones in full sun are noticeably better. The one that I have the highest hopes for are Kerr crabs. No apples yet but based on others here they appear to have a latter drop time. I Have also planted dolgo and chestnut crabs for earlier drops. Protection for a few trees is easy, screen around trunk, cage around tree. I have not had to deal with bears yet but I have not seen any damage to the older trees(bears are new to my area). I am also going to be planting a couple hundred crab seedlings next year. I have had some success getting these going using 2' tubes. Deer left them alone while tube was on even though they were way out of the tube. I just put some 3' cages around them and that should get them through their next growing season. Crabs definitely seem to be the way to go. If I was starting over I would have done mostly crabs.

 

[phil@thesidehill]

Same deal, 2zones colder and 4 years ahead of you. Your biggest challenge will be sun light. I have tried putting trees in all kinds of location. While the ones with a few hours of light are doing good, the ones in full sun are noticeably better. The one that I have the highest hopes for are Kerr crabs. No apples yet but based on others here they appear to have a latter drop time. I Have also planted dolgo and chestnut crabs for earlier drops. Protection for a few trees is easy, screen around trunk, cage around tree. I have not had to deal with bears yet but I have not seen any damage to the older trees(bears are new to my area). I am also going to be planting a couple hundred crab seedlings next year. I have had some success getting these going using 2' tubes. Deer left them alone while tube was on even though they were way out of the tube. I just put some 3' cages around them and that should get them through their next growing season. Crabs definitely seem to be the way to go. If I was starting over I would have done mostly crabs.

thanks chummer! i think we are pretty much settled on crabs in terms of apples. when do your chestnuts and dolgo's drop?

 

[phil@thesidehill]

St. Lawrence Nurseries and Cummins always seem to have good selection of crabs. I'm ordering 8 different varieties for next spring. I have a dolgo and centennial currently in the ground. The dolgo had fruit the 2nd year and the centennial had fruit the first year. I picked everyone off after coons started tearing up my other trees. Get them as much light as possible and away from big trees. 7 or 8 years ago we planted our first apple trees too close to the field edge. Those trees are getting passed by 3 and 4 year old trees that were planted one row further out in the open.

From Cummins:
Chestnut
Dolgo
Golden Hornet
Kerr

From SLN:
All-Winter Hangover
Trailman
Violi's Hanging
Winter Wildlife

what size trees were the ones that fruited in the 2nd and first years after planting, when you bought them?

 

[Bowsnbucks]

Phil - I've got a batch of apples and crabapples going at my camp in Lyco. If you want crabs, 2 nurseries come to mind - Cummins and Saint Lawrence Nursery ( SLN ). SLN has a few crabs that I've planted at camp and they're kickin' a$$. All-Winter-Hangover and Winter Wildlife Crab are 2 good ones that I have going. The AWH crab has 1 1/2" red crabapples on it and it produced in yr. 3. The WW crab hasn't produced yet, but it's only 1st leaf ( 1st year planted ). The AWH crab is about 8 1/2 ft. tall and branching really well, and put on about 4 dozen crabapples this year. The branches were so loaded I picked about 25 of them off to let the others develop and keep young branches from breaking. I'd HIGHLY recommend the AWH crab !!

Another good crab from SLN is Trailman - it's growing real well for us at camp. No fruit yet - ( 2nd leaf. ) Chestnut crab is another really good one that grows in Northern Minn. - zone 3 & 4. So it'll take cold & is a great tasting one too. We have 3 of them at camp - tallest is about 10-11 ft. tall. No fruit yet - 2nd leaf. SLN handles Violi's Hanging crab. It's a late-hanging 2" crabapple that stays on the tree into the winter. I have 1 of those growing at camp too - no fruit yet - 2nd leaf.

AWH, WW, Trailman, Violi's, Chestnut crabs are all very good for wildlife. They are easy to grow, & I've had no disease probs. with them. We have DeKalb Channery loam soil ( reddish, clay-ish with some small shale ) and they all grow well there. We also have Kerr, Dolgo, Centennial, Hyslop, Nova Scotia, Whitney, and Centurion crabs growing - but the ones I mentioned in the 1st sentence of this paragraph are the ones I'd start with.

For heavier clay-type soil, the rootstocks you would want to order your trees on are MM-111 and Antonovka. B-118 also works for us at camp. The rootstock is the determining factor as to how big your trees will get, as well as cold-hardiness and disease resistance. You won't go wrong with either MM-111 or Antonovka. B-118 is said to work in sandier soil, but it's doing real well for us in Lyco. Theses rootstocks will give you 18 to 24 ft. tall trees with enough wood to survive bears climbing once they get big enough. That's a major reason I went with them !!

We plant ours with composted mushroom soil in the planting holes, put down a 40" x 40" piece of landscape cloth - slit in the middle, slid down over the tree, then wrap the trunk loosely with 30" tall alum. window screen and staple it shut with a regular stapler. ( for mice and vole protection ). Then we pile 3 to 4" of pea-sized crushed limestone on top of the landscape cloth so it's ALL covered ( weeds and mice ) then cage the tree with 5' tall concrete mesh and stake it down big-time with re-bar. Our cages are about 4 to 5 ft. dia. so deer can't nip the young forming branches.

Check out SLN or Cummins on the net. E-mail for a catalog at SLN is Connor@sln.potsdam.ny.us. GET IT !!

I see others have posted in ahead of me and it's all kind of in the same vein. PM me Phil, if you want any other info or if you want to check out our plantings.

 

[Bowsnbucks]

The trees I got from Cummins and SLN were about 4 to 5 ft. whips. Some had a few small branches started, but it won't matter. They ALL did well !! We also got trees from Adams County Nursery (ACN), but they were regular apple trees - not crabs.

 

[phil@thesidehill]

The trees I got from Cummins and SLN were about 4 to 5 ft. whips. Some had a few small branches started, but it won't matter. They ALL did well !! We also got trees from Adams County Nursery (ACN), but they were regular apple trees - not crabs.

thanks BnB! lots of good info there!

did you guys plant them into existing field areas or did you guys make openings for them in the woods? if you made openings what are some approx sizes for the number of trees in the opening and how do they perform?

 

[Bowsnbucks]

Planted into existing fields mostly. A couple we cut down some pines beside a long food plot to make an indentation in the pines for planting an apple tree. Makes plowing and discing easier.

We also had a big OLD apple tree surrounded by pines that we released and it put on a pile of apples just by giving it sunlight. We didn't even fertilize it. Sun is the key. When you clear an opening for an apple or crab, you have to consider the angle of the sun into the opening from as early in the A.M. as you can manage to late afternoon. If you have taller trees to the south and east, you'll need to cut so you can get sun in there as long as possible on a given day. Then plant the apple tree on the NORTH side of the opening to maximize sun exposure. Rule of thumb - cut more than you first think you need. Cut on the south and east sides of where you want to plant the tree.

 

[phil@thesidehill]

that is pretty much exactly what i was thinking...trees to the south and east need to go. the spot we are thinking for the first few trees is on the up hill side of a slightly sloping food plot...its basically the NW corner facing SE. To the south and east of the plot there are several large mature maples that i think are eating up sunlight. I'll have to check next time i'm up there.

 

[Bowsnbucks]

Slightly sloping sounds good from a drainage point of view. If this is in the woods, this fall I'd spread a few bags of pelletized lime around to up the pH. You prob. already figured that for the food plot anyway, but the fruit trees like some lime too. It sounds like you have a good game plan going already, Phil. Also look for any weak or sickly trees that might fall on your newly planted crab trees and whack 'em.

 

[chummer]

thanks chummer! i think we are pretty much settled on crabs in terms of apples. when do your chestnuts and dolgo's drop?

No apples yet. I am hopeful my Kerrs will have some next year and maybe the chestnuts. The chestnuts I got from cummins this year were crazy big. They almost completely filled a 6' cage in one year. They put out lots of side branches and grew to about 7'. Trunks put on some good girth too.

 

[sandbur]

For me, at the edge of zone 3 and zone 4, dolgo drops about Labor day over a 10 day period or so.

Chestnut crops over about a 3-4 week period that often covers most of the month of Sept.

 

[Bowsnbucks]

I think Aero ( Bradford Co. ) was still picking his Chestnut crabs in October - if I remember correctly. I was talking to him around the 18th of Oct. and he still had some Chestnut crabs hanging on. Aero ?? At the very least, the Chestnut crabs will get the deer used to coming to your property for apples and they'll keep checking until your later droppers put some on the ground.

Bur is dead-on with the Chestnut crab's extended drop time. I've read the same thing about them from several sources and Bur's grown them for a while, as I recall him posting.

 

[sandbur]

I think Aero ( Bradford Co. ) was still picking his Chestnut crabs in October - if I remember correctly. I was talking to him around the 18th of Oct. and he still had some Chestnut crabs hanging on. Aero ?? At the very least, the Chestnut crabs will get the deer used to coming to your property for apples and they'll keep checking until your later droppers put some on the ground.

Bur is dead-on with the Chestnut crab's extended drop time. I've read the same thing about them from several sources and Bur's grown them for a while, as I recall him posting.

I have had chestnut crabs in the ground for about 25 years.