Forward facing sonar - fishing tech

[sandbur]

If it's a managed lake, I'd do some electrofishing and find out what you've got going on. Bass are a plague in a lake and can eat the hell out of everything. I think @sandbur could be on to something with poor recruitment. If the cover isn't there to protect the crappie when they hatch, the bass can clean them all up quickly.

When Upper Red was netted into a walleye collapse, the crappie population exploded and was something that will never happen again. Giant collapse in predators produced a legendary boom of crappie. I'd keep every bass in that lake and get a 100 yard load of sawdust and make compost out of all of them.

I suspect that in our natural lakes of that size, water temperature fluctuations, wind, erratic weather swings that last days in the spring, and other factors cause cycles in crappie populations. There are probably limited spawning sites compared to bigger lakes. Netting is not a factor in most smaller lakes.

Now we can add zebra mussels as a factor and I guess bass numbers are increasing.

Still crappie populations cycled for 50 years that I can remember.

 

[Mtyhunter]

If it's a managed lake, I'd do some electrofishing and find out what you've got going on. Bass are a plague in a lake and can eat the hell out of everything. I think @sandbur could be on to something with poor recruitment. If the cover isn't there to protect the crappie when they hatch, the bass can clean them all up quickly.

When Upper Red was netted into a walleye collapse, the crappie population exploded and was something that will never happen again. Giant collapse in predators produced a legendary boom of crappie. I'd keep every bass in that lake and get a 100 yard load of sawdust and make compost out of all of them.

I'm no expert for sure, but in my area of the US, the crappie don't have to go thru such a harsh winter. It's not uncommon for crappie to take over a bass pond, or small rivers. Most of our lakes are reservoirs, so we have alot of cover, and never seem to have a shortage of crappie.

I have caught small crappie, and used them for live bait for big bass and catfish. Yep, they'll definetely feed on them, but they can't seem to eat enough of them around here!

 

[AtomApple]

If it's a managed lake, I'd do some electrofishing and find out what you've got going on. Bass are a plague in a lake and can eat the hell out of everything. I think @sandbur could be on to something with poor recruitment. If the cover isn't there to protect the crappie when they hatch, the bass can clean them all up quickly.

When Upper Red was netted into a walleye collapse, the crappie population exploded and was something that will never happen again. Giant collapse in predators produced a legendary boom of crappie. I'd keep every bass in that lake and get a 100 yard load of sawdust and make compost out of all of them.

You sound like one of those walleye guys that blame everything else when you don’t catch fish. The Bass/Northern/Muskie, etc are all eating the walleye…as they pull bucket full after bucket full of walleye out yea4 after year.

It’s been proven that large predators like bass/norther/muskie eat the small “panfish” and help prevent over population which causes stunting.
The best way to have quality panfishing, is to have a quality food chain, with predators at the top.

 

[AtomApple]

I'm no expert for sure, but in my area of the US, the crappie don't have to go thru such a harsh winter. It's not uncommon for crappie to take over a bass pond, or small rivers. Most of our lakes are reservoirs, so we have alot of cover, and never seem to have a shortage of crappie.

I have caught small crappie, and used them for live bait for big bass and catfish. Yep, they'll definetely feed on them, but they can't seem to eat enough of them around here!

“
A single female crappie can lay
between 10,000 and over 60,000 eggs in a single spawning season. These eggs are laid in shallow water nests, and a female may spawn multiple times over the course of a few days, depositing eggs in different nests to ensure genetic diversity and higher hatching success.
In-Fisherman +1”
From Google AI.

 

[SD51555]

You sound like one of those walleye guys that blame everything else when you don’t catch fish. The Bass/Northern/Muskie, etc are all eating the walleye…as they pull bucket full after bucket full of walleye out yea4 after year.

It’s been proven that large predators like bass/norther/muskie eat the small “panfish” and help prevent over population which causes stunting.
The best way to have quality panfishing, is to have a quality food chain, with predators at the top.

@Mortensen said he wanted more crappies, and it appears the others do as well. This is a simple habitat problem. You have three options:

1. Kill more predators
2. Stock a ton of adult crappies
3. Increase quantity of small fish cover.

2 and 3 are infinitely harder than 1. They have identified their user requirements. Those are their options to meet it.

All those are going to be even more challenging on 200 acres. It’s hard enough to manage thru harvest on 1 acre.


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[Howboutthemdawgs]

4. Outlaw ffs. Crappie are ridiculously easy to catch when they are schooled up. The hard part is finding them. Not with FFS

 

[AtomApple]

Well it looks like my local private lake of which I'm a lot owner is going to a zero crappie policy for the next 3 years. Say it's fished out.

Would you say the number 1 predator is humans or large fish?

 

[SwampCat]

4. Outlaw ffs. Crappie are ridiculously easy to catch when they are schooled up. The hard part is finding them. Not with FFS

Some lakes in MS, Grenada in particular, but others as well - have seen reduction in crappie numbers and size - largely believed to be over harvest aided by FFS. They reduced bag limit quite a bit. I am also experiencing a reduced number of crappie where I fish. I cant say it is ffs, but folks are pounding the crappie in months no one used to catch them. Folks here did not realize crappie schooled big time in winter over deep water - 80’ or more - away from cover. Those fish are easy pickins with ffs - where before those fish were almost immune from harvest.

 

[Howboutthemdawgs]

Some lakes in MS, Grenada in particular, but others as well - have seen reduction in crappie numbers and size - largely believed to be over harvest aided by FFS. They reduced bag limit quite a bit. I am also experiencing a reduced number of crappie where I fish. I cant say it is ffs, but folks are pounding the crappie in months no one used to catch them. Folks here did not realize crappie schooled big time in winter over deep water - 80’ or more - away from cover. Those fish are easy pickins with ffs - where before those fish were almost immune from harvest.

I heard about some of those issues in Mississippi. I’d say it has to be almost certainly the result of ffs. Granted side imaging is pretty damn deadly to located them but even then you have just located a school while moving. Doesn’t help you to pin point cast on their head and watch how they respond.

 

[Kdog]

I don't have FFS on my boat, though my son does. I use side imaging to hunt for fish in a similar way - just without that real-time precision. The reality is that FFS doesn't make a fish bite; it just helps you find them. You still have to be an angler to close the deal.

Regarding overharvesting: that’s a human choice, not a tech flaw. My son and I return 99.9% of what we catch. Technology doesn't deplete a lake; poor ethics do. Saying FFS should be illegal is like the old arguments that compound bows were 'cheating' compared to longbows, or that crossbows shouldn't be allowed in archery season. It’s just the next step in how we engage with the sport.

 

[SwampCat]

I don't have FFS on my boat, though my son does. I use side imaging to hunt for fish in a similar way - just without that real-time precision. The reality is that FFS doesn't make a fish bite; it just helps you find them. You still have to be an angler to close the deal.

Regarding overharvesting: that’s a human choice, not a tech flaw. My son and I return 99.9% of what we catch. Technology doesn't deplete a lake; poor ethics do. Saying FFS should be illegal is like the old arguments that compound bows were 'cheating' compared to longbows, or that crossbows shouldn't be allowed in archery season. It’s just the next step in how we engage with the sport.

I think the bass are doing ok with the ffs - a lot of fishermen throw a lot of bass back. Where it seems to have made a negative difference so far - with the result of new regulations in some states - and anecdotal evidence where I fish - is with crappie. Not a lot of folks throw a lot of crappie back.

 

[Telemark]

So far, I haven't seen a shred of credible evidence that FFS is causing problems at all. It seems like FFS is getting the blame purely because it's the new thing. Reminds me of how any change in weather gets blamed on climate change. Arguments would be a lot more convincing if there was something solid backing up the claims.

 

[matinc]

Bill curious if you have been on board to see that sonar seeing fish two miles away?

 

[SwampCat]

So far, I haven't seen a shred of credible evidence that FFS is causing problems at all. It seems like FFS is getting the blame purely because it's the new thing. Reminds me of how any change in weather gets blamed on climate change. Arguments would be a lot more convincing if there was something solid backing up the claims.

“Effective July 24, 2024, the Mississippi Department of Wildlife, Fisheries, and Parks (MDWFP) reduced daily crappie limits on four major North Mississippi flood control reservoirs—Grenada, Enid, Sardis, and Arkabutla—to 10 fish per angler (down from 15) to combat the increased harvest efficiency of forward-facing sonar. The new, stricter regulations also include a 12-inch minimum length and a 25-fish boat limit for vessels with three or more anglers”

 

[SwampCat]

Bill curious if you have been on board to see that sonar seeing fish two miles away?

I have see omni directional sonar detect billfish 1000 yards away. I doubt it will have much effect on over exploitation of the resource due to the fact almost all billfish - with the exception of spearfish - are typically released. If you have caught many billfish, you will sooner or later inadvertently kill one - or more. I have killed two that were inadvertent - tail wrapped and would not recover, and had one swim directly into the prop after release. The more you catch, the more that will happen - and you will catch more with omni directional sonar.

 

[Satchmogv]

As a fishing guide on a 37,000 acre body of northern MN waters, my Humminbird Mega Live FFS is an extremely valuable tool for scouting for walleyes and eliminating unproductive water. I use is mostly for scouting areas for locations to fish later. I seldom use it while actually fishing with customers. I will use until the day they say I can’t.

 

[SwampCat]

Saturday we were camped on the lake bank. A boat with two fishermen in two side by side front deck chairs in a single boat fished down about 30 feet out from the bank where we were camped. One of the fishermen was instructing the other. The water was about 18 ft deep where they were fishing. We could hear every word they said. Single pole, 14’ rods, and minnow for bait. They were over a brush pile with several fish. One was fishing with the other instructing.

We could hear him say “lower it down to that bigger fish at 14 feet. No, no - not that one - the one just to the right. Yes, that one. Lower the minnow to a few inches from his nose - closer, closer - that’s good - now leave it still. Nope, not gonna bite - lift minnow up and lower back down - nope. Ok, jig it two or three inches about three times - ok, got him - good job”. This went on for about 30 minutes. They caught about a dozen - threw about half back they claimed were too small. After they left, we went out to check our lines and picked up two of their crappie they released that were floating belly up.

I use ffs some. I am not that adept with it. I easily catch ten times the crappie I caught before ffs.

 

[Telemark]

“Effective July 24, 2024, the Mississippi Department of Wildlife, Fisheries, and Parks (MDWFP) reduced daily crappie limits on four major North Mississippi flood control reservoirs—Grenada, Enid, Sardis, and Arkabutla—to 10 fish per angler (down from 15) to combat the increased harvest efficiency of forward-facing sonar. The new, stricter regulations also include a 12-inch minimum length and a 25-fish boat limit for vessels with three or more anglers”

This is the kind of thing that confuses me. FFS is certainly getting the blame, but why are they not banning it if it's the problem? That's how all other technologies are regulated in hunting and fishing. Size limits would tend to exacerbate the problem of increased catch efficiency. It would do better to protect the fish if the first 10 crappie in your boat are your fish, and you can't sit there and injure/kill fish all day trying to get your 10 keepers.

Seems like it's just easier to blame the technology rather than have people criticizing the Department of Wildlife's management policies. In the end, regardless of how easy it is to catch fish, it's the authorities regulation that determines how the resource is managed.

We are allowed to use thermal scopes at night to hunt deer in Norway, but we have a quota system. If the authorities determine you get a calf and a hind, those are your deer. You're only allowed to shoot a calf and a hind, and the authorities want you to shoot your deer. Thermals make it easier to hunt at night, but the regulation still limits harvest.

 

[SwampCat]

This is the kind of thing that confuses me. FFS is certainly getting the blame, but why are they not banning it if it's the problem? That's how all other technologies are regulated in hunting and fishing. Size limits would tend to exacerbate the problem of increased catch efficiency. It would do better to protect the fish if the first 10 crappie in your boat are your fish, and you can't sit there and injure/kill fish all day trying to get your 10 keepers.

Seems like it's just easier to blame the technology rather than have people criticizing the Department of Wildlife's management policies. In the end, regardless of how easy it is to catch fish, it's the authorities regulation that determines how the resource is managed.

We are allowed to use thermal scopes at night to hunt deer in Norway, but we have a quota system. If the authorities determine you get a calf and a hind, those are your deer. You're only allowed to shoot a calf and a hind, and the authorities want you to shoot your deer. Thermals make it easier to hunt at night, but the regulation still limits harvest.

Obviously, we cant release a deer after we shoot it like we can fish. Because of this, fisheries managers have the ability of utilizing length limits - among other things. If you had to keep the first ten fish you caught, length limits would not work. A fish has a much better chance for survival if thrown back in the lake than in the ice chest. Who is not to say that fish limits include the risk of some release mortality. I know guys who bass fish and catch 1000 fish in a year and never keep one.

Most of us dont know what we are catching before we see it - unlike when we deer hunt we can make a choice before it ever comes to hand. Game management and fish management are very different.

I think - so far - ffs has not been banned because of the ability to manage an animal that has a chance of release as opposed to lethal harvest every time it comes to hand.

 

[Telemark]

Obviously, we cant release a deer after we shoot it like we can fish

I didn't mention releasing shot deer. I just said you're not allowed to use the technology to go after whatever deer you want. You can only use it to go after the deer you're allotted. Thermals are not permitted for small game at all.

Likewise, I said it would be better to not use the technology for catching whatever fish you want. Either they should forbid FFS or require people using it to keep the first 10 crappie they catch. If FFS allows anglers to catch and release unlimited fish, that can only have a negative affect on fish like crappie.

I know guys who bass fish and catch 1000 fish in a year and never keep one.

I don’t target fish I intend to throw back, but that is a different conversation.

Most of us dont know what we are catching before we see it - unlike when we deer hunt we can make a choice before it ever comes to hand.

I thought the great thing about FFS is that you can see what you were catching. That was mentioned by another poster earlier who witnessed it. Maybe I misunderstood.

Game management and fish management are very different

Of course. Even different species are different from each other enough to require individual management strategies.

My point is that I don't think the technology is inherently a problem. I think the regulations are a problem. If there is evidence that FFS is causing depletion of crappie or other types of fish, I'm willing to accept that, but then regulations need to change.

I'm still not convinced FFS is responsible for the decline in crappie numbers, but I'm certainly not saying it couldn't be. It just seems so far that it's being blamed for problems but the problems are not being corrected, even when fisheries management authorities specifically blame FFS for the decline.

I think FFS gets the blame because it's a variable that seems to correlate with the decline in crappie numbers on some lakes. It's easy to blame the new technology, and in this case, it makes sense. I haven't yet seen any strong evidence that FFS is truly to blame, so I remain skeptical. I could change my mind in a minute if I see some convincing evidence.

That is to say, I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm just not convinced yet based on what has been presented to me.