Foggy's Deertopia Proving Grounds - Happenings

[Foggy47]

The thatch thing is interesting. Being new to this, especially no-till, at what point is there too much thatch/residue tying up nutrients?

After mowing and nuking RCG all spring and summer last year and then drilling rye/clover in mid sept, there is still a pretty tough layer of duff from the RCG sod. That duff has been great for keeping moisture this dry spring/summer but I wonder if the microbes are unable to help the whole system because of how much carbon there is from the RCG and following rye residue.

@Foggy47 - you can tell me to take my stuff into a different thread if you desire

No issue at all Gypsy. I'd like to know more about this too.......tho it could make a good thread for the future. We are all learning.

 

[Wild Thing]

The thatch thing is interesting. Being new to this, especially no-till, at what point is there too much thatch/residue tying up nutrients?

After mowing and nuking RCG all spring and summer last year and then drilling rye/clover in mid sept, there is still a pretty tough layer of duff from the RCG sod. That duff has been great for keeping moisture this dry spring/summer but I wonder if the microbes are unable to help the whole system because of how much carbon there is from the RCG and following rye residue.

@Foggy47 - you can tell me to take my stuff into a different thread if you desire

Generally speaking Wind Gypsy, I don't think you can really have too much thatch...

This is the typical thatch which I am planting (drilling) into...


maybe, just a little thick on this year a couple years ago...


but even tiny brassica and clover seeds have no issues coming up through it...


This is what I planted brassicas into a week or so ago...and I've got great germination again...


On the other hand, I am converting some switchgrass plots back into food plots this year which may be what you will be dealing with with you RCG. I mowed them back in June...


and again yesterday...




Next week I will spray it all with Glyphosate and then will drill my fall cover crop into them soon afterwards. There is some pretty heavy thatch in those switchgrass plots and they have not been fertilized in 5-6 years so I am not really sure what the nutrient levels are. Had not planned on fertilizing but I may take a soil sample just so I know where I am at.

 

[Wind Gypsy]

Generally speaking Wind Gypsy, I don't think you can really have too much thatch...

This is the typical thatch which I am planting (drilling) into...
View attachment 55140

maybe, just a little thick on this year a couple years ago...
View attachment 55141

but even tiny brassica and clover seeds have no issues coming up through it...
View attachment 55146

This is what I planted brassicas into a week or so ago...and I've got great germination again...
View attachment 55142

On the other hand, I am converting some switchgrass plots back into food plots this year which may be what you will be dealing with with you RCG. I mowed them back in June...
View attachment 55145

and again yesterday...
View attachment 55143

View attachment 55144

Next week I will spray it all with Glyphosate and then will drill my fall cover crop into them soon afterwards. There is some pretty heavy thatch in those switchgrass plots and they have not been fertilized in 5-6 years so I am not really sure what the nutrient levels are. Had not planned on fertilizing but I may take a soil sample just so I know where I am at.

I've not fully wrapped my mind around how all this soil biology works. I could see where degraded soils (like mine) might be more impacted with nutrient tie up in the form of lots of high carbon residue compared to soil that has had diverse living roots cycled through it for years and has a stronger microbe network to deal with all the carbon.

 

[SD51555]

As long as you're managing for balance, there can never be too much thatch. You can do it two ways:

(1) balanced all the time, meaning you grow high carbon (cereals, corns, sorghums, sunflowers, flax) and low carbon (clovers, alfalfa, brassicas, beans, peas, chicory, plantain) together all the time. That's what I'm doing with my sweet clover and rye blend.

(2) alternate from a high carbon crop to high nitrogen crop. I'm not a fan of switching like that because it opens up the plot to weed pressures from lesser diversity. Balanced all the time keeps the free nutrients to a minimum and leaves very little for weeds to exploit.

Keeping something growing all the time is the keystone of all of this. That's the green bridge. Once you reach full diversity and a good first crop, the residue won't matter so much as far as tie up is concerned. Your soil will be able to --quorum sense-- what the plants need and the soil fungi will go get it. This is why ongoing soil testing is of no value in regen systems because there is no actionable advice to be had. There is still the matter of getting plants up through that thatch though. That's where the drills or throw and mow tactics come into play.

You guys may get to see my modded up chain harrow in action this weekend for this very thing.

 

[Foggy47]

^

 

[Tree Spud]

I've not fully wrapped my mind around how all this soil biology works. I could see where degraded soils (like mine) might be more impacted with nutrient tie up in the form of lots of high carbon residue compared to soil that has had diverse living roots cycled through it for years and has a stronger microbe network to deal with all the carbon.

One simple way to look at it is, you need organic matter in your soil to hold onto nitrogen. So whether you add nitrogen or plant crop like legumes or clover which scavenges nitrogen, the thatch layer as it breaks down helps to keep the nitrogen from just leaching through the soil.

You could also plant sorghum sudan grass which is an excellent OM producer. You can let it get to 3'-4' feet, mow it and it will regrow. May get 2 cuttings out of it.

 

[Wild Thing]

As long as you're managing for balance, there can never be too much thatch. You can do it two ways:

(1) balanced all the time, meaning you grow high carbon (cereals, corns, sorghums, sunflowers, flax) and low carbon (clovers, alfalfa, brassicas, beans, peas, chicory, plantain) together all the time. That's what I'm doing with my sweet clover and rye blend.

(2) alternate from a high carbon crop to high nitrogen crop. I'm not a fan of switching like that because it opens up the plot to weed pressures from lesser diversity. Balanced all the time keeps the free nutrients to a minimum and leaves very little for weeds to exploit.

Keeping something growing all the time is the keystone of all of this. That's the green bridge. Once you reach full diversity and a good first crop, the residue won't matter so much as far as tie up is concerned. Your soil will be able to --quorum sense-- what the plants need and the soil fungi will go get it. This is why ongoing soil testing is of no value in regen systems because there is no actionable advice to be had. There is still the matter of getting plants up through that thatch though. That's where the drills or throw and mow tactics come into play.

You guys may get to see my modded up chain harrow in action this weekend for this very thing.

This is good SD and I agree with you wholeheartedly. There is another option which I used in a few of my alfalfa /clover plots.

I knew that I wanted to rotate from alfalfa/clover to brassicas this year to utilize the banked Nitrogen from 3 years of alfalfa and clover growth. But I also wanted that balance that you suggest with some carbon, and I also wanted some additional thatch to plant my brassicas into this year...

Lots of Nitrogen in the roots of these alfalfa and clover plants...


So last fall I mowed the alfalfa/clover fairly short and then drilled cereal rye into it at 75#/acre...(I probably should have gone up to 100#/acre) ...


The rye fed my deer last fall and this spring, and by June 1st was putting on growth to help with my goals....


and this is what it look like a week or so ago when I rolled it and then drilled my brassica/clover mix into it. Had it not been for the drought conditions this year I am sure the rye would have been much taller...


More than one way to skin the cat as they say.

I haven't fertilized this plot for a few years but here is what the soil test looked like in 2021 - the last time I soil tested. I didn't fertilize this year either so I don't expect to get giant turnips and radishes but I do expect to have some decent forage. Time will tell.

 

[Foggy47]

^ My hero!

 

[SD51555]

This is good SD and I agree with you wholeheartedly. There is another option which I used in a few of my alfalfa /clover plots.

I knew that I wanted to rotate from alfalfa/clover to brassicas this year to utilize the banked Nitrogen from 3 years of alfalfa and clover growth. But I also wanted that balance that you suggest with some carbon, and I also wanted some additional thatch to plant my brassicas into this year...

Lots of Nitrogen in the roots of these alfalfa and clover plants...
View attachment 55154

So last fall I mowed the alfalfa/clover fairly short and then drilled cereal rye into it at 75#/acre...(I probably should have gone up to 100#/acre) ...
View attachment 55155

The rye fed my deer last fall and this spring, and by June 1st was putting on growth to help with my goals....
View attachment 55156

and this is what it look like a week or so ago when I rolled it and then drilled my brassica/clover mix into it. Had it not been for the drought conditions this year I am sure the rye would have been much taller...
View attachment 55157

More than one way to skin the cat as they say.

I haven't fertilized this plot for a few years but here is what the soil test looked like in 2021 - the last time I soil tested. I didn't fertilize this year either so I don't expect to get giant turnips and radishes but I do expect to have some decent forage. Time will tell.

View attachment 55158

That is outstanding! Did the alfalfa survive being in that rye for a growing season?

 

[SD51555]

^
View attachment 55150

I just bought some carabiners and put them on the back of my chain harrow so I could pull it backwards with the teeth flat. I wanted to reconfigure it so I could use this to drag my plots after I mow them to hopefully just move the thatch a little bit without balling up big snags of residue. Fingers crossed those carabiners don't pop off.

 

[Foggy47]

My drag is similar to yours......but I can hook either end to my draw bar. Thus those carabiners are not needed. I would like another "draw bar" to put on the far end so the links dont tangle. But I soldom use my drag now that I have a drill.

 

[Wind Gypsy]

My drag is similar to yours......but I can hook either end to my draw bar. Thus those carabiners are not needed. I would like another "draw bar" to put on the far end so the links dont tangle. But I soldom use my drag now that I have a drill.

Mine is reversible like yours and the bar on the tail end is a great idea because the back corners are constantly getting tangled.

 

[Wild Thing]

That is outstanding! Did the alfalfa survive being in that rye for a growing season?

Yes it did. That is why I chose to nuke it with Interline (generic Liberty - Glufosonate) after rolling with the cultipacker and before drilling the brassicas. I got a good kill on the alfalfa as well as the rye and my brassicas are up and running...

I drilled the rye into the alfalfa on August 20th and this is the last photo I have of it last fall - 8 days later on August 28th. There is a little bit of a brassica plot up front and then 1 acre of alfalfa beyond it.


Snow melted in April and this is what it looked like on May 11th this year...


June 1st...


June 14th - still very little rain but growing OK under the circumstances.


I rolled it with the cultipacker on July 12th, Sprayed it on July 13th and drilled the brassicas on July 21st.

 

[Wind Gypsy]

Yes it did. That is why I chose to nuke it with Interline (generic Liberty - Glufosonate) after rolling with the cultipacker and before drilling the brassicas. I got a good kill on the alfalfa as well as the rye and my brassicas are up and running...

I drilled the rye into the alfalfa on August 20th and this is the last photo I have of it last fall - 8 days later on August 28th. There is a little bit of a brassica plot up front and then 1 acre of alfalfa beyond it.

Glad you got good germination, hopefully it stays healthy! I know last year i had what seemed like a solid brassica plot and then it all just curled up and died a month later. Only thing i can surmise is there was triclopyr residual that eventually hurt it after it looked to have gotten a solid start?

 

[Wild Thing]

Glad you got good germination, hopefully it stays healthy! I know last year i had what seemed like a solid brassica plot and then it all just curled up and died a month later. Only thing i can surmise is there was triclopyr residual that eventually hurt it after it looked to have gotten a solid start?

Yes me too. First time I have ever used Glufosonate but all is well at this point.

 

[TenPoint]

I just bought some carabiners and put them on the back of my chain harrow so I could pull it backwards with the teeth flat. I wanted to reconfigure it so I could use this to drag my plots after I mow them to hopefully just move the thatch a little bit without balling up big snags of residue. Fingers crossed those carabiners don't pop off.

View attachment 55164

View attachment 55165

I feel like I have the same harrow. I just flip the harrow over if I want "less teeth". One side they're up one side they're down. Not sure I understand the need for carabiners.

 

[Skeeter]

The thatch thing is interesting. Being new to this, especially no-till, at what point is there too much thatch/residue tying up nutrients?

After mowing and nuking RCG all spring and summer last year and then drilling rye/clover in mid sept, there is still a pretty tough layer of duff from the RCG sod. That duff has been great for keeping moisture this dry spring/summer but I wonder if the microbes are unable to help the whole system because of how much carbon there is from the RCG and following rye residue.

@Foggy47 - you can tell me to take my stuff into a different thread if you desire

As others have said, if your plants emerged without issue and grew well there should be nothing to worry about.
If your thatch is not breaking down, and things do not grow well, it could be an indication of anaerobic conditions. I have not had this problem on my property but have read a few things about it. Most of what I've read in the regen space recommends spraying with a microbial solution containing EM or some other product containing facultative anaerobes like LAB or possibly a vermi extract and molasses.

 

[Bowsnbucks]

As long as you're managing for balance, there can never be too much thatch. You can do it two ways:

(1) balanced all the time, meaning you grow high carbon (cereals, corns, sorghums, sunflowers, flax) and low carbon (clovers, alfalfa, brassicas, beans, peas, chicory, plantain) together all the time. That's what I'm doing with my sweet clover and rye blend.

(2) alternate from a high carbon crop to high nitrogen crop. I'm not a fan of switching like that because it opens up the plot to weed pressures from lesser diversity. Balanced all the time keeps the free nutrients to a minimum and leaves very little for weeds to exploit.

Keeping something growing all the time is the keystone of all of this. That's the green bridge. Once you reach full diversity and a good first crop, the residue won't matter so much as far as tie up is concerned. Your soil will be able to --quorum sense-- what the plants need and the soil fungi will go get it. This is why ongoing soil testing is of no value in regen systems because there is no actionable advice to be had. There is still the matter of getting plants up through that thatch though. That's where the drills or throw and mow tactics come into play.

You guys may get to see my modded up chain harrow in action this weekend for this very thing

This is GOLD for us non-AG guys!!!! That first thought - #1 - is what we need to be doing at our camp. Much easier to get all the benefits without going crazy with 100 steps. With only a couple of us involved with the planting, life will get simpler, I'm thinking.

 

[SD51555]

This is GOLD for us non-AG guys!!!! That first thought - #1 - is what we need to be doing at our camp. Much easier to get all the benefits without going crazy with 100 steps. With only a couple of us involved with the planting, life will get simpler, I'm thinking.

I put in my first food plot in 2002. After 21 years, I still haven't found that perfect blend and process, but I'm very close. My goal is to only spend one day a year on my food plot. Up north is a short enough growing season, rye will carry all the way from winter to fall planting. My goal is a simple broadcast, mow, drag to scatter thatch, pack, profit. I'd really love to see viable seed out of my sweet clover at mow time so I could cut that out too and just throw rye only. I'm not brave enough to not throw in some sweet clover seed this year though.

No maintenance soil testing
No maintenance lime
No maintenance gypsum
No fertilizer
No chems
No tillage

If it mows well enough, I'd like to skip the dragging and packing too. I'll know a whole lot more by mid September if this will do it.

 

[SD51555]

I'm in D1 drought now, and should be in D2 within another week or two I'd imagine. This is a great year to see how that idea goes. If it doesn't work in a dry year, it's not worth very much.