equipment advice

[megavites]

2 acre plot in NE PA. Rocky soil. Last yr we 2 rowed and disced, but didn't disc enough to level the ground. Plots were a failure.
This year we soil tested, limed and Gly'd twice. The plan was to light disc and plant.
I've been thinking alot about improving things with a spring cover crop, crimping/terminating and the benefits of a no till drill.
My question is, what's the recommendation for a no till drill on the low end of the budget?

 

[Bill]

My question is, what's the recommendation for a no till drill on the low end of the budget?

I think that's a unicorn. No till drills are expensive. There are some min till drills that are cheaper depending on your soil but from what I've seen NE PA can have some heavy soils.

There are old 6 row John Deere no till bean and corn planters around. Just not sure what you want to plant.

 

[megavites]

Bill, yes, we have clay in the soil.
This yr we are going with Dr Grants "Dairyman" plot. Oats, clover and chickory.
Next yr, maybe Alfalfa or Jt Vetch cover crop. Not sure what the Fall crop would be yet.
We are still trying to figure things out on this property.

 

[bigboreblr]

Lets here more about that plot failure. Thinking the lack of weed control was more of an issue last year.

Discing, Just did that tonight. I put seeds down that need 1-2 inches in the soil, then disc. I am using an ATV disc on heavier clay. Larger heavier tractor discs can turn soil too deep. You may need a set of wheels on your disc if your sing it to cover seeds. Much like no till discs only go so deep. Good sized air filled wheels used for heavier carts would work ok.

Spread larger seeds, disc to cover, tamp down seeds / soil, then add small seeds, tmp down one more time. Cultipacker, dragging tires or a log, or just rolling in tires on ground works fine. IDeally use a cultipacker after the disc, spread your small seeds like turnips or clover, ten cultipack again. Roller can be used ok too. Used a lawn roller in my plot today.

Generally small seeds reason for failure is putting them too deep in the ground.

 

[megavites]

Lets here more about that plot failure. Thinking the lack of weed control was more of an issue last year.

Discing, Just did that tonight. I put seeds down that need 1-2 inches in the soil, then disc. I am using an ATV disc on heavier clay. Larger heavier tractor discs can turn soil too deep. You may need a set of wheels on your disc if your sing it to cover seeds. Much like no till discs only go so deep. Good sized air filled wheels used for heavier carts would work ok.

Spread larger seeds, disc to cover, tamp down seeds / soil, then add small seeds, tmp down one more time. Cultipacker, dragging tires or a log, or just rolling in tires on ground works fine. IDeally use a cultipacker after the disc, spread your small seeds like turnips or clover, ten cultipack again. Roller can be used ok too. Used a lawn roller in my plot today.

Generally small seeds reason for failure is putting them too deep in the ground.

our Spring planting was a two row then disc. Hand spread Clover, rye, rape and radish. Road quads overtop to compact. Some of the Beerseem clover took. Should have put caged plot test area.
Plots are burned down now and will be checked this wknd.
Plan is wknd of Aug 23rd to disc and plant Oats, chickory and clover. Alfalfa (left over) to go in a smaller plot.
I'm trying to find a chain drag before then, otherwise we could then use an ATV discer or just quads to compact.

 

[Ben.MN/WI]

Why were the plots a failure last year? The seeds you mentioned should have done well if the ground wasn't perfectly level. Is it possible that you buried the seed too far? When I plant a mix of oats and small seeds like clover, chicory and brassicas I disk the plot, then drag to smooth it out, then spread the oat seed and drag again. Then I cultipack the soil (or you could run over the soil with an atv), spread the small seeds and cultipack again. If you follow that plan and your soil nutrients are decent then you should have a good plot.

Did you do a soil test to see what the pH and nutrient levels are? Some poor soils have trouble growing typical food plot plants until the deficiencies are corrected.

 

[megavites]

I think early non-existent rain was one reason. We definatly didn't bury the seed deep.
We did a soil test this year and added recommended lime.
Soil pH was low at 6.0, P at 14, K at 70. All Low. Only Mg was above Optimum.
From what I've read, Manure can up most of these levels. I'm interested in what others think are best methods, then i would have to
investigate where to source, as the property is remote.

 

[Ben.MN/WI]

You should be able to pick up some fertilizer at a local coop if there is one in your area. I use a pull behind spreader behind an ATV to spread about 1000 pounds per year. The type of fertilizer they have available will determine the quantity, but fertilizer high in P and K will be helpful.

Bagged lime in dust form can be a pain to spread, but it is certainly an option. I've spread a lot of lime by hand and even using an ATV spreader even though it tends to clump with a spreader. If there is a menards or fleet farm near by, pelletized lime is another option but that is more expensive.

A drought could definitely cause the issues you saw last year.

 

[RGrizzzz]

I think early non-existent rain was one reason. We definatly didn't bury the seed deep.
We did a soil test this year and added recommended lime.
Soil pH was low at 6.0, P at 14, K at 70. All Low. Only Mg was above Optimum.
From what I've read, Manure can up most of these levels. I'm interested in what others think are best methods, then i would have to
investigate where to source, as the property is remote.
View attachment 67086

Looking at your pH, 6.0 isn't bad. That PSU test says you don't need any lime for brassicas, as they like it lower than 7.

For fertilizer you can likely find some starter fertilizer that's close enough your need. Lowes sells some Lesco starter fertilizer that's something like 18-24-12. Multiply that by 4, and you're close at 72-96-48 vs 75-100-40. You'd need 8 bags and acre if you want to go full rate.

Also, if you submit another soil test to PSU, chose wildlife food plot as your crop. It will be a better general recommendation. 4T/acre of brassicas likely needs a lot of fertilizer to get that yield.

 

[bigboreblr]

Soil test says do not lime. I would put a 1/2 ton of lime in that soil before you use a set of discs. Sam goes with the fertilizer. Potassium and phosphorus are more difficult to get to lower soil levels. Oats absolutely love potassium I'd go a little higher on the potassium levels. more like 60 lbs an acre.

You asked about no till drills. What equipment would you be using for the drill? Tractor, ATV. Think a quality cultipacker would be a good low cost investment. Indivual steps for only 2 acres isn't bad. Putting a 12v speader and some plywood boxing on a set of discs can make a poor mans seed drill for grains.

Food plot failure insruance... Rye. Maybe not buy it or just keep a bag around, but find otu where you can get it in a hurry. Mid september, even late september isn't too late. Many of us on here plant stuff and spread rye into the field to grow for winter / spring.

 

[megavites]

what do you guys think about a liquid application, like Phosguard Plus 0-32-25 ?
We have a tank sprayer and it would be easier to apply. I'm thinking disc to level, spray, seed then drag.
ARe the liquid options viable?

 

[RGrizzzz]

what do you guys think about a liquid application, like Phosguard Plus 0-32-25 ?
We have a tank sprayer and it would be easier to apply. I'm thinking disc to level, spray, seed then drag.
ARe the liquid options viable?

You won't come close to the amount the soil test recommends with liquid.

 

[Foggy47]

what do you guys think about a liquid application, like Phosguard Plus 0-32-25 ?
We have a tank sprayer and it would be easier to apply. I'm thinking disc to level, spray, seed then drag.
ARe the liquid options viable?

Just saw an interesting YouTube video on Liquid Lime......and I think this is pretty good info on it.

 

[RGrizzzz]

Just saw an interesting YouTube video on Liquid Lime......and I think this is pretty good info on it.

Reasonable explanation of what neutralizes acidic soil. Also, there are other carbonates besides calcium carbonate, you'll sound like an idiot asking someone for "carbonate". Soil tests also recommended rates of lime based on a specific calcium carbonate percentage.

Beware of Liquid Calcium Products

Do the math and consider the chemistry before investing in a liquid calcium product for your soil.

extension.psu.edu

 

[Foggy47]

Reasonable explanation of what neutralizes acidic soil. Also, there are other carbonates besides calcium carbonate, you'll sound like an idiot asking someone for "carbonate". Soil tests also recommended rates of lime based on a specific calcium carbonate percentage.

Beware of Liquid Calcium Products

Do the math and consider the chemistry before investing in a liquid calcium product for your soil.

extension.psu.edu

Well...your article supports what he says in the video. We are both on the same page.

 

[buckdeer1]

Your spring seed mix is closer to what I plant in fall in Kansas

 

[Maddog66]

A Firminator or Woods seeder isn’t a drill. It also costs less than 1/2 of a drill. This is the direction I decided on for my Wisconsin rock farm

Edit : I’m not sure the exact name and model but the “Saya” drills seem to be the least expensive - new- when I was shopping. About $12k $14k depending on a few things. But the GP drill was nearly double that.

 

[FarmerDan]

Seeding. I think we don't discuss the theory and methods enough. If you don't get the seeds placed at the right depth in the right amounts at the right time in a properly prepared seed bed the odds of a successful plot range from failure to not so good to maybe ok. Weeds and fertility and soil pH and disking and cultipacking might have some effect on establishment but planting timing and placement are critical. The answers about that aren't always evident.

There are many different planters designed to give proper depth and spacing - assuming you know how to calibrate and achieve target rates. What are ideal target rates? Again, I think we assume too much. When we see common recommendations in pounds per acre what does that mean or what does it assume? Is it that everyone of those seeds you plant will germinate and grow into a viable plant? I'm not sure.

Depending on your experience and conditions at the time of planting I am going to propose a simple solution. Double your seeding rate when you are unsure of the situation. This game is all probability based. More seeds, in my mind, means a better chance of getting something growing. And, seeds, while expensive, are much cheaper than no-till drills. But then total failure costs twice as much.....

And then there are the capabilities of the soils you are planting in to. Another day.....

 

[buckdeer1]

What are you pulling implement with?

 

[Foggy47]

To me a Firminator does a few tasks at the same time and can be a big time saver. It does a "minor" tillage (depending on how it's set up) and a seed broadcast...followed by a cultipack of the seeds. Not a bad thing for a single pass.....especially if the tillage / disking is appropriate for the condition....really appropriate with small seeds.

I suppose we can identify these methods to plant seeds:

1. Tillage and spray....then broadcast....and drag or pack the seeds.
2. Throw and mow.
3. Spray and throw and mow. (or cultipack)
4. Drill baby drill. (and spray or mow previously)
5 Any combination or variation of the above.

We are all trying to do a similar (yet different) approach to getting the seed into the best scenario where it can grow. I think a Firminator is a good tool for many.