Eagle beans vs ?

[D Hunter]

On the old forum, there was an extensive thread re Eagle beans compared to several other kinds. Anybody here involved in those trials? If so what was the consensus? Thanks "D"

 

[yoderjac]

D Hunter,

I've used both Eagle and Ag beans but have done no side by side comparisons. I've moved some of my old threads related to beans over here from the other forum. I did not move over any of the comparison threads. Personally, I think it is kind of an apples and oranges comparison. Forage beans (Eagle) are developed to primarily create forage in favor of pods. In my experience they have far out performed any ag bean I've used in the areas of fast growth, browse tolerance, and forage production. When they canopy, they produce lots of very small pods. When I use ag beans, given they canopy and produce pods, they produce much larger pods.

So to me, it really boils down to the application and cost. When my deer densities are high and the combination of browse tolerance and weed control are paramount to forage production for my summer stress period, Eagle seems to be the only game in town but at $80-$90 per bag they have an hefty price. On the other hand, when I have our population in balance and can get ag beans to canopy, they are a better value providing sufficient summer forage at a lower cost.

I think folks in the north where pod production for winter is the goal will fair better with Ag beans (whether is a selected mix of varieties like RWB or a variety you choose for its characteristics) unless you are in an unusual situation where your densities are high enough that Ag beans don't make it far enough along to make pods.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[SWIFFY]

FWIW.... im in MN and Did the sxs with Ag vs Eagle. Like Yoder said, it was no comparison for me, the Ag bean were far superior. Im in an agricultural area so theres a lot of beans anyway. The deer always chose the Ag over Eagle in the summer, but couldnt overbrowse them in my area anyway. In late season the Ag had big pod compared to the tiny pod in Eagle. Then the fact that the Ag were free from NRCS office and the Eagle were $90/bag... it was a no brainer. Ill probably never do Eagles again because clearly where im at, there were no positives! They did grow big and tall though!

 

[MoBuckChaser]

Do none of you guys realize that eagle and all the other bullshit expensive beans out there are just late maturity AG soybeans? No offense, But I just laugh every time one of these threads pop up! Bahahahahahaha!

They do comparisons against normal maturity soybeans showing how much taller their beans are. Its crap, save your money and pay $40 for late maturing RR AG beans if you want! Or plant double the rate of mormal beans for your area and get the same. Stop wasting your fricken money!

 

[yoderjac]

That is clearly wrong. Eagle are forage beans bred for forage, not pod production. There are other forage beans like Tyrone. The price Eagle is able to command is because they are one of the few forage beans that had licensed the RR gene. Late maturing Ag beans produce larger pods and less forage per plant.

Planting soybeans at double the rate simply results in less resources per plant and less production. I see little advantage of forage bean in most situations in the north, but RR forage beans are the only soybeans you can establish in may areas of the south outside big ag to service the summer stress period. If you are in a big ag area, there is no need to plant soybeans in the south to cover the summer stress period because it is covered by the farmers beans. Outside big Ag areas in the south, the combination of summer weeds advantaged by weather and heavy browse pressure from high deer densities makes Eagle beans a very good fit.

When I was first adding soybeans to our program, I started with Ag beans. They provided exactly 1 byte per plant for deer. Deer would eat every plant while young. When I switched to Eagle beans, at 5 acres, the deer kept them naked all summer but could not kill them. They continued to produce forage and the deer would eat it as soon as the beans produced it. It wasn't until I got to 7 acres of Eagle bean that the canopied and produced pods.

Ag beans were completely worthless in that situation and Eagle beans were a great fit. So while Bahahahahahaha! may be a compelling argument for some, it certainly isn't for me.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[Alpha Doe]

We did a side by side trial of Eagle, Real World and free ag beans. Everything was documented and pictures taken during the whole process. Like others stated, each type has their special niche in food plots. We live in a heavy agricultural area, beans are everywhere...acres and acres of beans. If we planted a forage bean...all the forage and money would go to waste because the deer are so spread out on the production fields. We need pods for late season. For our needs, free ag beans are the best fit. Look at what is planted in surrounding areas, what the weak spots are in your food plot program, size of your plot, cost associated in the seed, then decide whether forage beans or production beans fit what YOU need.

 

[wiscwhip]

There are other forage beans like Tyrone. The price Eagle is able to command is because they are one of the few forage beans that had licensed the RR gene.

Which means your still wasting your money on Eagles. Anyone who will preach the "weeds in plots are ok" rhetoric until they are blue in the face is throwing money away on the RR traits. Save yourself $40 a bag and plant Tyrone, Derry, Donegal, Laredo, Quail Haven, or a host of others that I did not list that are not under the thumb of Monsanto and save yourself some cash. Now for those of you who will tell me that "weeds are ok accept in soybeans", save your rhetoric for the guys who buy BOB seed. All of the varieties I mentioned will canopy very quickly and should shade out most weeds anyway. Granted, some of these varieties are not readily available at your everyday Big Box hunting outlet like Cabelas or Bass Pro, but if you stop at an actual farmers coop, they can usually get some of the above named varieties for considerably less money than your Monsanto overlords dictate the Eagle beans be sold for. I have nothing personally against Eagle Seeds or Monsanto, but for those who don't mind a little ragweed or other "undesirables" growing in your plots, save yourself some cash. Do a little web research, inquire at your local coop or feed mill, get yourself a bag of non-RR forage soys and see how they perform in your deer plots. And remember, the deer don't care about weeds in your plot.............

 

[MoBuckChaser]

We did a side by side trial of Eagle, Real World and free ag beans. Everything was documented and pictures taken during the whole process. Like others stated, each type has their special niche in food plots. We live in a heavy agricultural area, beans are everywhere...acres and acres of beans. If we planted a forage bean...all the forage and money would go to waste because the deer are so spread out on the production fields. We need pods for late season. For our needs, free ag beans are the best fit. Look at what is planted in surrounding areas, what the weak spots are in your food plot program, size of your plot, cost associated in the seed, then decide whether forage beans or production beans fit what YOU need.

AD, you are spot on again!

Late season Pods are where it is at! No Pods, you have no Deer!

 

[MoBuckChaser]

I have a Idiot neighbor in Missouri that plants the $90 a bag magic forage beans, he still cant figure out why the deer are all on my property all fall! He wastes his money planting SUMMER FORAGE, when it freezes he has nothing! I have late maturity AG BEANS that provide SUMMER FORAGE and FALL FORAGE after it freezes!

MY AG BEAN DEER VIDEO!

 

[yoderjac]

Which means your still wasting your money on Eagles. Anyone who will preach the "weeds in plots are ok" rhetoric until they are blue in the face is throwing money away on the RR traits. Save yourself $40 a bag and plant Tyrone, Derry, Donegal, Laredo, Quail Haven, or a host of others that I did not list that are not under the thumb of Monsanto and save yourself some cash. Now for those of you who will tell me that "weeds are ok accept in soybeans", save your rhetoric for the guys who buy BOB seed. All of the varieties I mentioned will canopy very quickly and should shade out most weeds anyway. Granted, some of these varieties are not readily available at your everyday Big Box hunting outlet like Cabelas or Bass Pro, but if you stop at an actual farmers coop, they can usually get some of the above named varieties for considerably less money than your Monsanto overlords dictate the Eagle beans be sold for. I have nothing personally against Eagle Seeds or Monsanto, but for those who don't mind a little ragweed or other "undesirables" growing in your plots, save yourself some cash. Do a little web research, inquire at your local coop or feed mill, get yourself a bag of non-RR forage soys and see how they perform in your deer plots. And remember, the deer don't care about weeds in your plot.............

You might want to go back and read that weed thread more carefully. It is advocating a more thoughtful approach to weeds. It is not an all weeds are good or all weeds are bad approach. It takes into consideration ones objectives and poses a question as to what role the weeds are playing in either achieving or impeding ones long-term objectives.

So, when you re-read that thread, you will see that in my area, weeds are an issue with warm season annuals, but not with my cool season annuals or perennials. The combination of browse pressure and weed competition reduce soybean forage production well beyond the tipping point. I use glyphosate for both pre-planting and post emergent weed control. I also include a very light mix of RR corn with my beans. The objective is not corn production but adding some vertical cover in the beans to encourage more daytime use but that is thin enough for ethical shots. This eliminates most of the post-emergent grass control herbicides in beans as an option like Clethodim.

From a cost perspective, one needs to consider the entire cost of planting the field, not just seed cost as well as time availability. Using glyphosate on RR beans (ag or Eagle) provided many more options for folks in my area with high deer density outside ag areas. Not only is it less expensive form of weed control (being outside a big ag area I don't have a glyphosate-resistance issue), it also can be used when browse pressure keeps the beans from forming a canopy. For example, without a canopy, summer grasses will invade forage (or ag beans) but once established, they can continue to produce forage. RR forage beans like Eagle, because they are indeterminate late maturity, will produce forage well into our archery season for attraction. I can apply glyphosate to these standing beans, and surface broadcast a cover crop for fall. This removes the grass canopy which can be fairly heavy by late summer and allows the cover crop to germinate. The result is a mix of soybean forage through mid-October with WR, CC, and GHR or PTT growing in them. As the bean forage yellows and falls, the small pods are still available. While my deer don't use them much except in mast crop failure years, my turkey use them heavily.

The more general point here is that you are only wasting your money when you don't match the characteristics of the seeds you use with your application. Applications differ based on region, surrounding conditions, deer densities, soil types, weed specifics, and probably more other factors than I know. Everyone has to look at their own application and make a value judgment.

As you can see from my previous post, I'm not advocating that Eagle beans are a fit for every application. However, they fill an important niche in the south for many. I'm also not advocating that all weeds should be ignored.

I would agree that if your application does not require weed control or if the variety of pre and post emergent herbicides necessary to establish non-RR forage beans work for your application, non-RR forage beans can be a viable alternative that may or may not be a lower overall cost when herbicides are considered.

The overarching principle applies. These forums are a great place to share experiences and characteristics with different seeds and describing why we used them and what characteristics worked for us. Assuming that everyone else has the same application as we do that they are wasting their money doing things differently than we do is a bit shortsighted.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[browndog]

They do comparisons against normal maturity soybeans showing how much taller their beans are. Its crap, save your money and pay $40 for late maturing RR AG beans if you want! Or plant double the rate of mormal beans for your area and get the same. Stop wasting your fricken money!

Planted Eagles in 2006...yep waste of money IMO. I'll take my 2.1 AG beans that are 50" tall and full of pods...they will be a HUGE draw late Nov early Dec.

 

[yoderjac]

AD, you are spot on again!

Late season Pods are where it is at! No Pods, you have no Deer!

While AD is spot on, your other statement is shortsighted. While that may be true in your area, it is certainly not true in mine. Pods are the lowest priority on my list when planting soybeans. One size does not fit all.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[MoBuckChaser]

Keep drinking the kool aid, I love the fact you are wasting money not realizing forage beans are just late maturing ag beans.

Late maturing ag beans are bred to grow taller, produce more branches than early maturing ag beans, so with more branches, you get more leaves, but NO PODS in a early maturity area.

Find the latest producing AG BEAN for your area that will produce pods and you are in! If you have heavy DPSM, plant 250,000 seeds per acre, let the deer eat half them and you still have beans all fall, beans with PODS on them all fall. IF you have a small plot, take the money you save on $90 a bag eagle beans and put up a solar power electric fence and save them for late season.


Some peoples children.......

 

[wiscwhip]

You might want to go back and read that weed thread more carefully. It is advocating a more thoughtful approach to weeds. It is not an all weeds are good or all weeds are bad approach. It takes into consideration ones objectives and poses a question as to what role the weeds are playing in either achieving or impeding ones long-term objectives.

So, when you re-read that thread, you will see that in my area, weeds are an issue with warm season annuals, but not with my cool season annuals or perennials. The combination of browse pressure and weed competition reduce soybean forage production well beyond the tipping point. I use glyphosate for both pre-planting and post emergent weed control. I also include a very light mix of RR corn with my beans. The objective is not corn production but adding some vertical cover in the beans to encourage more daytime use but that is thin enough for ethical shots. This eliminates most of the post-emergent grass control herbicides in beans as an option like Clethodim.

From a cost perspective, one needs to consider the entire cost of planting the field, not just seed cost as well as time availability. Using glyphosate on RR beans (ag or Eagle) provided many more options for folks in my area with high deer density outside ag areas. Not only is it less expensive form of weed control (being outside a big ag area I don't have a glyphosate-resistance issue), it also can be used when browse pressure keeps the beans from forming a canopy. For example, without a canopy, summer grasses will invade forage (or ag beans) but once established, they can continue to produce forage. RR forage beans like Eagle, because they are indeterminate late maturity, will produce forage well into our archery season for attraction. I can apply glyphosate to these standing beans, and surface broadcast a cover crop for fall. This removes the grass canopy which can be fairly heavy by late summer and allows the cover crop to germinate. The result is a mix of soybean forage through mid-October with WR, CC, and GHR or PTT growing in them. As the bean forage yellows and falls, the small pods are still available. While my deer don't use them much except in mast crop failure years, my turkey use them heavily.

The more general point here is that you are only wasting your money when you don't match the characteristics of the seeds you use with your application. Applications differ based on region, surrounding conditions, deer densities, soil types, weed specifics, and probably more other factors than I know. Everyone has to look at their own application and make a value judgment.

As you can see from my previous post, I'm not advocating that Eagle beans are a fit for every application. However, they fill an important niche in the south for many. I'm also not advocating that all weeds should be ignored.

I would agree that if your application does not require weed control or if the variety of pre and post emergent herbicides necessary to establish non-RR forage beans work for your application, non-RR forage beans can be a viable alternative that may or may not be a lower overall cost when herbicides are considered.

The overarching principle applies. These forums are a great place to share experiences and characteristics with different seeds and describing why we used them and what characteristics worked for us. Assuming that everyone else has the same application as we do that they are wasting their money doing things differently than we do is a bit shortsighted.

Thanks,

Jack

That ^^^ whole post is great and all, but have YOU tried the non-RR forage soys for yourself? Making statements like those above, I take it YOU HAVE actually tried the non-RR varieties and they were epic failures for your applications then? Or is this anecdotal evidence that YOUR weeds will overtake them? Shortsighted? Hello kettle. I HAVE tried both Tyrone and Laredo soys in the past, so I think I CAN speak to their ACTUAL performance. Neither one of them panned out for me, mainly due to the fact that a sub-1/2 acre unprotected soybean plot in a non-ag area with WI deer densities is destined for failure, RR Eagles, ags, or otherwise. What I can say from PERSONAL experience with the non-RR soys is that they did produce deer food for fawns and lactating does for a week or 2 longer than non-forage ag beans before our deer killed them by hoovering them to the dirt, and with some protection or a large enough plot to get them over a couple feet tall, I feel they would have been fine for summer and early fall forage until the frost took them out.

For guys wanting to try non-RR forage beans and would like a "weed free" plot(corn, volunteer or planted in soybeans on purpose, is a "weed" in soybean plots, so if you want corn in your plot, you will have to live with other grasses as well, and spray a broadleaf only residual herbicide). Start with a relatively clean plot, spray with a hot dose of gly after spring weed emergence(but do not wait until they get too tall). After planting the soys into the burned down plot, allow the soybeans to emerge, and spray your plot with one of the many post emergent residual herbicides in the list provided below(DO YOUR HOMEWORK!! FOLLOW ALL LABEL DIRECTIONS!!). Sure, most of them are more money per acre to apply than gly, but many can be sprayed for around $10-$15 per acre, and given the $40-$50+ premium one pays for RR Eagles, your still saving $25-$30 per acre. Considering you would potentially be spraying gly twice, pre-plant burndown and post-emergence anyway, the "tractor expenses" of a second spraying are a wash. There is more than one way to end up with a relatively weed free forage soybean plot(and gly resistant weeds won't throw a wrench in your gears), and you can save money over the "you must plant RR forage soys" crowd.;)

https://igrow.org/up/resources/03-3000-2013_1.pdf

 

[browndog]

There is so much food for the deer to eat by me and my beans do see some browse. Pic below-2.1 ag beans from one of my plots, plenty of leaves for browse and tons of pods for late Nov and early Dec. I call that a win win. The eagles I planted in 2006 were toast in Sept when they got nailed with frost. They had some pods but they never matured and were useless the rest of the fall.

I'll stick with my ag beans.

 

[MoBuckChaser]

You can spray Cadet herbicide for broadleaves on both corn and soybeans for about $5/acre, great post herbicide to go along with a good pre!

Use it on conventional Corn and bean Plots without risk of injury to either crop.

 

[wiscwhip]

You can't argue with a photo like that^^^^^!!!!!

MO, about how far along was that plot, like when was that photo taken? My point would be that I don't see any other grasses(like foxtail) hiding in there, so the soys most likely canopied before they were an issue.

 

[MoBuckChaser]

You can't argue with a photo like that^^^^^!!!!!

MO, about how far along was that plot, like when was that photo taken? My point would be that I don't see any other grasses(like foxtail) hiding in there, so the soys most likely canopied before they were an issue.

I don't believe these are Conventional beans, I just used the picture as an example of growing corn and beans together. We use a lot of WR seeded early spring for weed suppression then terminate that will a good dose of GLY, then follow up with notil planting into the trash. You can also spray Dual pre, for grass control in both corn and beans. This picture is of WR Rye hand seeded doing it job and building the soil.

 

[JFK52]

I have my farmer no till plant the same ag beans that he is putting into his fields. He plants my fields last. The deer eat the green leaves of the bean plants until they turn yellow. Then they are on the pods big time. I figure that I still produced about 40-45 bushels per acre last season on my 5 acre non irrigated food plot. I think those excellent results and I pay the same price as my buddy for the seed. I never even considered any other type of beans to plant.

 

[yoderjac]

That ^^^ whole post is great and all, but have YOU tried the non-RR forage soys for yourself? Making statements like those above, I take it YOU HAVE actually tried the non-RR varieties and they were epic failures for your applications then? Or is this anecdotal evidence that YOUR weeds will overtake them? Shortsighted? Hello kettle. I HAVE tried both Tyrone and Laredo soys in the past, so I think I CAN speak to their ACTUAL performance. Neither one of them panned out for me, mainly due to the fact that a sub-1/2 acre unprotected soybean plot in a non-ag area with WI deer densities is destined for failure, RR Eagles, ags, or otherwise. What I can say from PERSONAL experience with the non-RR soys is that they did produce deer food for fawns and lactating does for a week or 2 longer than non-forage ag beans before our deer killed them by hoovering them to the dirt, and with some protection or a large enough plot to get them over a couple feet tall, I feel they would have been fine for summer and early fall forage until the frost took them out.

For guys wanting to try non-RR forage beans and would like a "weed free" plot(corn, volunteer or planted in soybeans on purpose, is a "weed" in soybean plots, so if you want corn in your plot, you will have to live with other grasses as well, and spray a broadleaf only residual herbicide). Start with a relatively clean plot, spray with a hot dose of gly after spring weed emergence(but do not wait until they get too tall). After planting the soys into the burned down plot, allow the soybeans to emerge, and spray your plot with one of the many post emergent residual herbicides in the list provided below(DO YOUR HOMEWORK!! FOLLOW ALL LABEL DIRECTIONS!!). Sure, most of them are more money per acre to apply than gly, but many can be sprayed for around $10-$15 per acre, and given the $40-$50+ premium one pays for RR Eagles, your still saving $25-$30 per acre. Considering you would potentially be spraying gly twice, pre-plant burndown and post-emergence anyway, the "tractor expenses" of a second spraying are a wash. There is more than one way to end up with a relatively weed free forage soybean plot(and gly resistant weeds won't throw a wrench in your gears), and you can save money over the "you must plant RR forage soys" crowd.;)

https://igrow.org/up/resources/03-3000-2013_1.pdf

Yes, when I first started working with soybeans to cover my summer stress period, my local coop sold Tyrone beans. They are bred for my area. I tried them and I tried ag beans. In my particular case it was the combination of weed competition and browse pressure that were the major factors. I'm not at all suggesting that there are not other way to get soybeans passed the tipping point. When I factored in both the costs and the time and the fact I want to surface broadcast a cover crop into beans for fall, Eagle, even at the higher per pound seed cost was a better value for my application.

Right now, ag beans are a good fit for me. We knocked our population back pretty hard and last year I was able to get ag beans to canopy for the first time. Our populations are bouncing back. I used ag beans again this year but they did not canopy. They did serve their purpose and provided forage during our summer stress period. Each year, I need to make a call and weather is a factor too. When my does are getting ready to drop fawns they like to stay in cover and we have plenty of high quality native foods in cover at that time of year. However, the combination of weather (rain, soil temp, etc.) and work (I'm a semi-weekend warrior) can keep me from planting until later some years. If my beans are not far enough along vegetatively, deer wipe them out. Eagle beans seem to come out of the box much faster than ag beans and seem to handle browsing better at an earlier stage.

I'm all for saving money, but non-RR forage beans did not work out for me. RR forage beans always work here and depending on deer numbers ag beans can work some years. I'm all for saving money where I can.

I'm also not denying that non-RR beans also fill a niche as do RR forage beans and Ag beans. It is all about matching the characteristics to your application.

Thank,

Jack