Do I need to remove the leaves before frost seeding?

[Derek Reese 29]

Hello everyone,
Just wondering if I should leaf blow or rake the leaves off of my plot before frost seeding in about a month or so? I have never done this, but have heard it can help and I got a suboptimal growth of my frost seeded clover last year and am trying to figure out why (I did seed it earlier than normal and it stayed cold for a long time afterwards...). My field is surrounded by pretty tall maples/cherries/oaks on the North, South and East sides but open to the West. Here's a pic of my future food plot helper so you can get an idea of how many leaves I am dealing with.

 

[Bowsnbucks]

Well - your future helper looks engaged!!! Great to start 'em early. I held our kids up right to the bottom branches of trees so they could see what's out there. Take your kids with you whenever you head for the outdoors - they'll learn to love ALL of it.

As far as the leaves go - I suppose it would help get the seed to the soil. Looks like you'd have a TON of leaf-blowing to do though. Wouldn't the wind help tip leaves over or blow the clover seed OFF the leaves too?? OR if you have a 4-wheeler - maybe drag a section of chain-link fence around after seeding?? Just a thought - others may have slicker ideas.

 

[Derek Reese 29]

Well - your future helper looks engaged!!! Great to start 'em early. I held our kids up right to the bottom branches of trees so they could see what's out there. Take your kids with you whenever you head for the outdoors - they'll learn to love ALL of it.

As far as the leaves go - I suppose it would help get the seed to the soil. Looks like you'd have a TON of leaf-blowing to do though. Wouldn't the wind help tip leaves over or blow the clover seed OFF the leaves too?? OR if you have a 4-wheeler - maybe drag a section of chain-link fence around after seeding?? Just a thought - others may have slicker ideas.

I plan to take him everywhere, though at one point in our walk around the plots he was sampling the rye and clover....he might be part deer already!
I do have a wheeler, but that field is only an acre so even raking it wouldn't be that bad. My uncle lives right up the road and has a leaf blower that I could probably borrow too.

 

[yoderjac]

You need seed soil contact. The freeze/thaw cycle that draws tiny seed into the germination layer of the soil does not deal with debris. So, if leaf cover is thick enough that it would reduce seed soil contact, you should remove them. If they are not that thick, it may not matter. In general, I'd remove them as they are a contributor to acidifying soil.

 

[Diesel5610]

That leaf cover does not look thick enough to warrant it to me. I have a plot that is in the woods and looks just like that and I have frost seeded it several times successfully. I would seed just a bit heavier to make sure you get enough seed on the ground that does get the soil contact you need. Removing those leaves would certainly help but not necessary in my experience.

 

[Turkey Creek]

I have no 1st hand experience, but I would think dragging a piece of woven or chain link behind the ATV sounds like a plan that would work to me. Besides knocking the seed on to the soil surface it would probably scratch the surface just enough to even help the seed work into the soil just a bit more. Or you could try a little experiment and put all 3 methods to work side by side and then give us a report! LOL

 

[omicron1792]

I have many man trails that I seed constantly. Leaves are a pain and you will have much better success blowing them. I use a regular blower, but I would consider a pull behind one like they have at golf courses.

Leaves make terrible thatch/mulch. They take a long while to breakdown, and they really acidify the soil. I think the plants pull all the good stuff back in every fall and just drop all the bad stuff. Ha

 

[Barndog56]

If it was my plot I would run over it with my mulching lawn mower, chopping those leaves into little pieces. And the sooner the better.

 

[bigboreblr]

Disturbing the field will kill more things than it will improve right now. I'd just spread the clover when you're ready and call it good.

 

[Bill]

From what I see I'd just spread the seed. A couple good winds and the ones that land on a leaf will be on the ground

 

[SD51555]

That leaf cover does not look thick enough to warrant it to me. I have a plot that is in the woods and looks just like that and I have frost seeded it several times successfully. I would seed just a bit heavier to make sure you get enough seed on the ground that does get the soil contact you need. Removing those leaves would certainly help but not necessary in my experience.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[SD51555]

You need seed soil contact. The freeze/thaw cycle that draws tiny seed into the germination layer of the soil does not deal with debris. So, if leaf cover is thick enough that it would reduce seed soil contact, you should remove them. If they are not that thick, it may not matter. In general, I'd remove them as they are a contributor to acidifying soil.

Are you sure? The japanese say that leaves do not acidify soil. What you are probably seeing is allelopathic fallout. I wish I could spread about two inches of chopped oak leaves onto my clover every spring to kill the grass.

 

[FarmerDan]

I vote to leave the leaves and up the seeding rate.

The whole idea of the possible acidification of soil caused by decaying oak leaf litter is another subject. Separate from that is the effect the decaying leaves have on seed germination. If there is, is it becasue of the very temporary dive of soil pH on the surface or is it because of some alletrophic effect. Who knows?

Maybe the better question, word it how you wish, is what affects the germination of seed broadcast on the surface? We can go down that road but so what? It's a bunch more things than oak leaves. Fact of the matter is - broadcast seed germinates at a lower perentage than seed pressed into the soil at the proper depth (probably). Frost-seeding has some possible (soil mechanics) benefit of getting the seed to the right place at the right time. But there are a lot of if's and things that need to be right and go right.

If six pounds of seed planted into a perfect seed bed resuts in an ideal plant population, then you need to increase your seeding rate to get the same plant population when the surface conditions ain't so ideal. The over over-seeding rate might be 2x or 3x the reommended "perfect-seed-bed" seeding rate - or it just might be those same six pounds if you can live with one out of three seeds (or maybe all of them) germinating. It's a crap shoot.

 

[Derek Reese 29]

I vote to leave the leaves and up the seeding rate.

The whole idea of the possible acidification of soil caused by decaying oak leaf litter is another subject. Separate from that is the effect the decaying leaves have on seed germination. If there is, is it becasue of the very temporary dive of soil pH on the surface or is it because of some alletrophic effect. Who knows?

Maybe the better question, word it how you wish, is what affects the germination of seed broadcast on the surface? We can go down that road but so what? It's a bunch more things than oak leaves. Fact of the matter is - broadcast seed germinates at a lower perentage than seed pressed into the soil at the proper depth (probably). Frost-seeding has some possible (soil mechanics) benefit of getting the seed to the right place at the right time. But there are a lot of if's and things that need to be right and go right.

If six pounds of seed planted into a perfect seed bed resuts in an ideal plant population, then you need to increase your seeding rate to get the same plant population when the surface conditions ain't so ideal. The over over-seeding rate might be 2x or 3x the reommended "perfect-seed-bed" seeding rate - or it just might be those same six pounds if you can live with one out of three seeds (or maybe all of them) germinating. It's a crap shoot.

I had this exact scenario happen this year to me on one of the two "leaf" fields in question. I didn't get a great kill by spraying, but I left the seed amounts about what was called for per acre instead of upping them significantly. As a result (and with the help of very little rain) I ended up with a crappy field of spotty brassica, almost no clover and limited grains. When frost seeding I usually at least double the rate, even if just overseeding. I want there to be good thick clover for lots of tonnage and have found that this is what it takes. For me, the price of seeds (even though they are high) is not to a place where adding 3lbs or 6lbs here and there is an issue.

 

[omicron1792]

I feel your pain.

 

[Bowsnbucks]

I feel your pain.

What state are you in Omicron??

 

[omicron1792]

What state are you in Omicron??

I’m in alabama my man. You?

I have so many oak trees I have to kill thousands of them. Blasphemy I know.

 

[omicron1792]

What state are you in Omicron??

Just added to my profile. Thanks for reminding me.

 

[yoderjac]

Are you sure? The japanese say that leaves do not acidify soil. What you are probably seeing is allelopathic fallout. I wish I could spread about two inches of chopped oak leaves onto my clover every spring to kill the grass.

Well, the certainly a source for C, so if the plot has sufficient legumes for N then I suppose they add to OM if mulched. It probably depends on the amount of leaves as to whether they are a problem. On micro-plots in hardwoods, I've had most success using a side discharge mower. I mow from the center out. This mulches most of the leaves and blows much of the debris toward the outside of the field. When I'm done, the only leaf debris left in the field is pulverized and mot impacting seed soil contact. Much of the debris is off to the sides of the field.

Again, if leaf litter is light, it may make no difference.

 

[Bowsnbucks]

I have so many oak trees I have to kill thousands of them

Better to have more - than not enough!! I'm in Pa. (listed in my profile). I was trying to figure out where you are by the trees in the pic at post #15. That's why I asked. By the trees, I thought further north than Alabama.