Disc vs Tiller

Snowshoe Acres

A good 3 year old buck
I am thinking Spring already! I have many acres that I am trying to reclaim as food plots. Most of the acres have been covered in tag alder and willow, which I have cut down with my brush cutter. This spring I want begin prepping the soil for planting and I have been hearing conflicting views on the best way to do this. The soil has a good amount of clay with lots of rocks. Tag alder spreads by their roots and I have lots of those as well. I have heard that rotary tillers are slow, get clogged and damaged by roots and rocks. Discs are faster and less expensive, but don’t get the soil as smooth. Would love to hear your experience and recommendations, I can only afford one or the other.
 
Is neither an option?

I'd advise going no til from the start if you have rocky ground.
 
No-till, minimum-till ... conceptually it's a great idea and each grower needs to decide what it all means. There will always be a moment when tillage of some sort would be a great advantage. Each requires a different management style and skill. All I can say to the OP with any emphasis is, skip the rotary tiller. In my mind they are for preparing a 'fine' seed bed where momma can walk and plant just as if she were on a smooth street. And, don't even think about a rotary tiller on ground filled with perennial plant (grass) roots, rocks, and other stuff that's going to be a barrier to gettin' 'er done. I guess that leaves a disc (or minimum till / no-till / throw and mow). But, you'll still want some way to provide a little more smoothness especially if you are planting small seeds. Well, a good disc runner can do the smoothing as well, but they are hard to find.
 
Depending on how you set your disc, if even an option, i would recommend not discing very deep unless you are willing and equipped to pick rocks. Our family has a very large farming operation for cash crop, and i thought I knew better when i ran the idea past the father in law about reclaiming an old cattle yard behind the barn. The area was sandwiched between the barn and the creek, about 90 yards wide and 200 yards long full of tall grass. I mowed the grass and commenced to discing shallow.

Discing took a couple hours back and for to even it up. Picking rocks with a friend, a Polaris Ranger and a loader tractor took 2 eight hour days and a ton of sweat.

I should have listened. End of story.
 
I am thinking Spring already! I have many acres that I am trying to reclaim as food plots. Most of the acres have been covered in tag alder and willow, which I have cut down with my brush cutter. This spring I want begin prepping the soil for planting and I have been hearing conflicting views on the best way to do this. The soil has a good amount of clay with lots of rocks. Tag alder spreads by their roots and I have lots of those as well. I have heard that rotary tillers are slow, get clogged and damaged by roots and rocks. Discs are faster and less expensive, but don’t get the soil as smooth. Would love to hear your experience and recommendations, I can only afford one or the other.

I'm a big advocate of soil health. Tillage, depth and frequency, burn OM and destroy soil tilth. Google "Ray the soil guy" and watch some of his videos. Start with the short infiltration video. Ray's focus is on commercial farmers, but the principles hold true for food plots, and because we are different than farmers, we can get even more benefit from them. Next, read through the long Crimson n Camo Throw and Mow thread. He takes the principles that Ray (NRCS Soil Scientist) espouses and shows how to apply them with small equipment.

The reason I say to do this first is because I have equipment just sitting around collecting dust like a 2-bottom plow now that I know better. I'm still recovering from the damage I did with that and a tiller to my soil. After many years or rehabilitation, I'm now getting back to the point where I don't need fertilizer any more and I'm getting effective plots. The first rule is "do no harm".

So, once you've convinced yourself (I hope you do) that you are better off with long term success with soil health rather than short-term gain and long term headaches from traditional tillage, you'll need to understand the techniques. Generally less is better when it comes to soil-health and tillage.

The more fertile your soils is, the more it can handle the abuse of tillage. In big ag areas with highly productive soils, folks can get away with heavy tillage and it may take a lifetime and you still might not exhaust the soil. Most of us managing for deer are dealing with marginal soils. The more on the sandy or clay end of the spectrum you are, the less abuse your soil can take. Organic matter is key in these more marginal soils.

With sand, nutrients and water tend to move through the soil very fast. With clay then tend to move very slow. OM in either of these soils supports a microbiome that promotes nutrient cycling and tempers the movement of nutrients.

I have high clay content in my soils. Clay tends to form a crust if exposed to rain directly and that crust can inhibit some of the direct T&M techniques. Until the OM content is built up in your soil (that is another conversation about crop mixing and rotation selection), I find "Min-Tilling" effective in clay. There are different ways to do it. You can use a very light disc that scratches up the crust. You don't want it set too aggressive or be too heavy because you don't want to get any deeper than the top inch. Another very effective way to do it is with a tiller. I raise the 3-pt hitch enough so that the tines are barely touching the top inch. I move quite fast so the tiller does not spend much time in any one spot. The field looks more green than brown when I'm done. The tiller chews up the existing vegetation and throws a little soil around but the field does not look like a traditionally disked field.

When I started, I used to plow then run a tiller at full depth. I marveled proudly at how nice looking the seed bed was. How well the soil was ground up, not clods like a disk. It was fine and fluffy. I'd broadcast seed and then run the tiller over it with the PTO turned off to drag a bit of soil over the seed. I thought it was great, but I needed more and more fertilizer to keep crops growing. Finally a soil scientist pointed me to a recipe for building a good dirt road. It was exactly what I was doing. Grinding the soil up into tiny particles and the using a combination or rain and equipment weight to compress it. Never put a heavy tractor on wet clay soil. It compacts very easily.

We recently bought a fire disk. Even in its least aggressive setting, it disks too deep for my taste when it comes to min-till. A cheap light angle iron disc gets it about right for min-till.

So, both a disc and tiller will work, but which disc and how you use the tiller make a difference.

If you decide you really want to do the old traditional deep tillage approach, I'd suggest a heavy disk over a tiller. A disc is much faster than a tiller at full depth and tiller tines wear quickly when used that way. For min till, tine wear is much less of an issue. They don't wear as much when barely touching the top inch, Most of the contact is with vegetation. As they wear, you are simply not raising the hitch quite as high so you maintain that 1" level or less. It takes many years before they need replaced unlike traditional tillage.

Thanks,

Jack
 
Not a tiller. Maybe a disc. Maybe a harrow. Preferably no-till.

What about a sprayer instead?

Don't worry about smooth soil. I'm not convinced it's an advantage, especially with clay.
 
I would buy a disk. I have a tiller - but it is slow. I would probably use a disk to start with to smooth and level the surface. After a few years, and the plots are in decent shape - I MIGHT try tnm - but I have about a 50% success rate with tnm. If I absolutely want a successful plot in that area - it is not going to be tnm. Minimum tillage with a disk, as Jack describes, provides a much higher chance of success - at least for me.
 
I would buy a disk. I have a tiller - but it is slow. I would probably use a disk to start with to smooth and level the surface. After a few years, and the plots are in decent shape - I MIGHT try tnm - but I have about a 50% success rate with tnm. If I absolutely want a successful plot in that area - it is not going to be tnm. Minimum tillage with a disk, as Jack describes, provides a much higher chance of success - at least for me.
What's tnm stand for?
 
For OP, agree with others that tiller is bad mix with roots and rocks. BTW, how big of rocks are we talking about? Assuming roots and brush is taken care of, can you even mow or get around in the field with the rocks still there?

Also what kind of foodplots? Just rye and clover or beans/corn and stuff that I would want to have more level ground to get more uniform plant depth vs. stuff that can almost lay on top of the ground and still germinate.

The implement I find the best for initial working is not a disc however. I like to borrow an old Ferguson ripper/chisel plow like Fred Cain still sells. Spring loaded is key for dealing with roots and rocks
https://www.everythingattachments.c...vator-Ripper-p/fc-field-cultivator-cain-9.htm
Fred Cain Ripper.PNG


After that, having a disc is useful to get loose dirt to fill holes in and level things out somewhat but for beans/corn would also want to have some type of drag to really level things out. I used an old heavy duty section of chainlink fence with a 2x4 of each end for many years. Now I use an old spring tooth drag that works well to level and bust up disc clumps that I would expect are even more of a problem with clay. Something like this
spring tooth drag.jpg

Eventually after prep is complete and things are level enough for future mowing I would want to park the disc as much as possible and maybe try throw and mow.
 
I have heard that rotary tillers are slow, get clogged and damaged by roots and rocks. Discs are faster and less expensive, but don’t get the soil as smooth. Would love to hear your experience and recommendations, I can only afford one or the other.

The difference between a tiller and disc is the same a the difference between your home lawn mower and brush mower. One maintains already prepped ground or grass, the other tackles unprepped ground.

For your situation a disc would make most sense. It will allow you to do some like disc'ing to allow better soil & seed contact. TNM is great under the right circumstances; however, we do not all have the right conditions. You can then plant tillage radishes to help start to break up the clay.

Regardless of what you choose, you will have to start clearing roots and picking rocks.
 
The difference between a tiller and disc is the same a the difference between your home lawn mower and brush mower. One maintains already prepped ground or grass, the other tackles unprepped ground.

For your situation a disc would make most sense. It will allow you to do some like disc'ing to allow better soil & seed contact. TNM is great under the right circumstances; however, we do not all have the right conditions. You can then plant tillage radishes to help start to break up the clay.

Regardless of what you choose, you will have to start clearing roots and picking rocks.

I'm not quite sure I'd go quite that far with the analogy. There are light duty angle iron discs that couldn't touch new ground and there are heavy duty tillers that would do better. Having said that, you will find many more heavy duty disks out there if that is what you want. The biggest issue with no-till and T&M is weed control. There are places that have developed gly-resistance and some of the newer herbicides can be expensive. Highly fertile ground can tolerate tillage which helps with weed control, but marginal ground degrades over time requiring more inputs. There are multiple techniques that reduce tillage, No-till drills and planters, Min-till as I described above, Throw and Mow. All require either herbicides or a very high weed tolerance. As we have brought our deer numbers under control, my tolerance for weeds has increased greatly!

Thanks,

Jack
 
I have heard that rotary tillers are slow, get clogged and damaged by roots and rocks. Discs are faster and less expensive, but don’t get the soil as smooth.
This is exactly my experience with both.

I have a decent amount of clay soil and we overheated a tiller trying to use it to prep for planting. A disc did a LOT better and you can run it at different depths. Initially deep to break up roots, etc.., then shallower to smooth it over. A disc can also be used to thin NWSG stands or create strips to restart early successional growth.
In a perfect world I'd prefer to have a LP 606NT no-til drill but you have to work with what the budget allows sometimes.. :emoji_smirk:
 
This is exactly my experience with both.

I have a decent amount of clay soil and we overheated a tiller trying to use it to prep for planting. A disc did a LOT better and you can run it at different depths. Initially deep to break up roots, etc.., then shallower to smooth it over. A disc can also be used to thin NWSG stands or create strips to restart early successional growth.
In a perfect world I'd prefer to have a LP 606NT no-til drill but you have to work with what the budget allows sometimes.. :emoji_smirk:

Yep, I made that mistake of deep tillage with heavy clay when I started and it took a heavy toll on the tiller. I've learned a lot since those days. My plots are more effective than ever and at a much lower cost with fertilizer cost elimination but it has taken my quite a few years of min-till/no-till for my soils to recover. I eventually bought a small Kasco no-till versadrill. I use is for large seeded crops like beans and corn in the spring, but I have not planted those for a while. Lately I've been planting sunn hemp and buckwehat in the summer and they min-till or T&M + cultipack so well, I don't use the drill. I never plant anything in the fall with seed large enough to need the drill.

Thanks,,

Jack
 
I've only used a roto-tiller on the back of my tractor. A '5 King Kutter. It has a clutch on the PTO shaft that disengages if I get something stuck in there like large rocks or a piece of pipe (more common than rocks stopping it). The large rocks, lets say melon size or a little bigger get kicked back and out as the machine goes over them. I've never had roots stop the machine ever. I use a bushhog first on new ground and mow down everything with that including small trees, maybe 3-4" around, then take a few passes with the roto-tiller. If I stop there is rough soil with lot's of debris still on the top. If I want to go for more passes I can eventually make it fine dirt, but I don't. I "usually" do this at the end of the year, like now, or a within the last month, then let all the debris mix sit over winter with the snow load and such and then start sparying in early spring. My fields here in Ohio are trying to turn back to woods, that's what I'm dealing with. After roto-tilling, yep, I do a walk through with my SxS and gather up the large rocks and use them in my pond for reef material. It's just part of food plotting.
 
If you do have rocks and roots you will ruin a tiller. A good heavy built disc is the best bet. I have a disc and can do rough rocky ground without destroying the thing. Like everything else---there is a learning curve.
 
Lately I've been planting sunn hemp and buckwehat in the summer and they min-till or T&M + cultipack so well, I don't use the drill. I never plant anything in the fall with seed large enough to need the drill.

Thanks,,

Jack

Curious what do you use to plant on your place? I've been walking miles using a handheld broadcast spreader trying to plant 2-3 acres this way. The over the shoulder broadcaster is easy for the hidey hole foodplot but I need to find a better method for time management. The walking is a nice workout however, but by early June not so much!

Looking at a spreader like a LP FSP500 but hear they aren't too accurate and sling quite a ways if you're trying to do strips.
 
If you have just cleared down the brush I would probably skip the disk and tiller next spring and spray with round-up instead. You could amend the soil with lime and fertilizer and spray once a month in spring and summer until it is time for a July or August fall plot. If you let the roots and debris die off and break down for a year or two things will get a lot easier and you will have more options that will be less likely to damage your equipment. You might want to throw down a little more fertilizer high in nitrogen to help the dead roots break down a little faster.
 
Curious what do you use to plant on your place? I've been walking miles using a handheld broadcast spreader trying to plant 2-3 acres this way. The over the shoulder broadcaster is easy for the hidey hole foodplot but I need to find a better method for time management. The walking is a nice workout however, but by early June not so much!

Looking at a spreader like a LP FSP500 but hear they aren't too accurate and sling quite a ways if you're trying to do strips.

I've got a solo chest mount spreader that I use for small kill plots. For our larger fields, we have a 3pt broadcast spreader we use behind the tractor.
 
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