Deer business wars?

[yoderjac]

The whole "doe factory" thing will probably come back to bite Jeff Sturgis. The property he owns now (in one of the best neighborhoods in the country for big bucks), has summer food weaving in and out of it and all around the area. He may not be planting summer food on his property, but he's definitely summer food "adjacent". What's in the red outlines are his property. The fields in between are still owned by farmers.

I'm not saying you can't get big bucks the way he does it, because he obviously can. It's just not the only way.

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Completely agree. I always got a chuckle out of that one.

 

[TenPoint]

Higgins is the only whitetail podcast I listen regularly. They’ve always thrown some barbs at others so I haven’t noticed a big increase? He’s been steady making fun of the “doe factory” concept and tree saddles since I started listening. Nocked crimpers recently seemingly because he’s focused on corn and beans and not the rye focus that seems to accompany crimpers but did make sure to mention that the deadly dozen they’ve been using for years is a lot like the new “soil building blends” and seemed to allude to vitalize in particular.

Haven’t watched sturgis in a while but know he advised for brassica plantings to be alone and over-seeded with rye later if at all so you could get more brassica biomass than you would if it were competing with grains upon germination. By mid Nov in central to northern MN, brassicas seem to be the biggest draw (for us without beans and corn) and can get wiped out if there isn’t a lot of them so that seems to make sense to me.

I thought I would be smart last year and include some oats in my brassica planting. I didn't get it from any of these guys just off the top of my own head. Will never do that again. Just doing brassica and a little clover to comeback for the next year. I'm finally ready to start the LC rotation fully on my 1 acre field plot. Half of the perennial clover is in place, the other half is going in at the end of the month. The rest of the field will be half brassica and half cereal grain. Will rotate those two each year. Should be the only annual plantings I'll have to do moving forward for awhile hopefully.

 

[TenPoint]

I agree with Pat and Ben...watching some of those "Experts'" videos to get some semblance of a foundational knowledge while already being skeptical when I was first starting out into habitat management was a good idea...I recognized right away that a few of the things that were being espoused might work well for me, but others would not (think "creating a waterhole" in an area with a ton of free flowing water already or hinging an acre of hardwoods in a spot that is already tough to walk in)...also I learned alot from trying (and failing at) some of their ideas and a bunch of my own. The "buck bed" idea was one of my favorite..I even hung a camera there to watch all the big mature bucks bed in that special spot....(nothing with hooves ever came near it...though the foxes loved it)...
I do very much hate that the people who need the best and most complete information the most (the newer, less experienced ones) are the ones who suffer the most..the little guy I mentored showed up for his first archery rut hunt with the biggest pair of plastic rattling antlers that I had ever seen...needless to say they stayed in the house and we still saw some bucks..

I always laughed at buck beds. Come to one of our properties and try that. Good luck.

 

[Mortenson]

I think those guys (maybe higgins was the first?) really hoodwinked a bunch of the hunters into staying out of the woods the entire month of Oct until "the hunting really gets good" and then the years go by and you watch them dump another booner in Oct. "Hey wait for primetime Nov 8 red moon while I fill all my buck tags over green food sources a month ago", lol

 

[TenPoint]

Big bucks can be had any day of the year.

 

[Crimson n' Camo]

That's because you teach folks how to improve soil health without having to spend money on magic beans solutions. You also base your approach on real biology and soil science.

Just like Lickcreek, you lifted the veil showing folks how to do it themselves.

Pioneers get the arrows

It certainly comes at a price when the “money” around you makes it a priority to constantly distort everyone’s view of your message and knowledge base so as to keep it from becoming relevant to the consumer. I get it though….its just the way the market works when there are goods and products that need sold and in a weird way its even understandable….you live and learn I guess…. though I’ll still never be the guy to knowingly pimp products over science. It’s just not the way I’m wired.



One of the biggest issues we have in wildlife management is that the truth always has to be blurred in order to fit all of the other special interests and agendas. After awhile it makes it really difficult for folks to be able to find realistic solutions to problems that make sense or even know what the actual problem may be in some cases. The science that get taught on how to manage wildlife or soil reaches a point of being irrelevant and it becomes more about marketing and economics. I suppose I have a much more realistic but very jaded view of the whole situation now. I still enjoy helping people but I’m through being that pioneer having all the arrows slung at him. The chips will just have to fall how they may concerning the bigger picture.

 

[PatinPA]

Big bucks can be had any day of the year.

One of the biggest things I've learned with the invention of trail cameras. My property is a small secluded area where they feel safe. I've gotten pictures of mature buck on their feet midday often. I grew up being told that the big bucks were all nocturnal.

 

[SD51555]

I suppose I have a much more realistic but very jaded view of the whole situation now. I still enjoy helping people but I’m through being that pioneer having all the arrows slung at him. The chips will just have to fall how they may concerning the bigger picture.

I've started to mature in my approach as well. I used to just jump in whole hog and go for the root of the problem, and that caused some issues because often times I'd be answering a question nobody asked. --'How do I kill this?'-- and --'How do I solve this?'-- are two very different questions.

 

[SD51555]

I still give my iron and chem friends a hard time. They often get this gif from me when they bring up using that stuff.

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[Tree Spud]

I only pay attention to one deer manager and that is Steve Bartylla. I know he works in some environments similar to my part of the country and I just like the guy.

I have not listened to any other experts for years other than a few habitat videos. I see some of these guys making the same mistakes we made years ago.

I seem to have very little interest in food plotting and magic beans at this point. I just don’t have the interest and live in a heavy ag area with corn, beans, alfalfa, sweet corn, and edible beans all around me.


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I agree that Steve is a good resource. Have talked to him several times and down to earth with practical experience & recommendations.

 

[Bassattackr]

Wiggins and Wurgis

Why Higgins?

Sturgis I agree 100%.. Can’t stand the guy.

 

[Bassattackr]

Higgins is the only whitetail podcast I listen regularly. They’ve always thrown some barbs at others so I haven’t noticed a big increase? He’s been steady making fun of the “doe factory” concept and tree saddles since I started listening. Nocked crimpers recently seemingly because he’s focused on corn and beans and not the rye focus that seems to accompany crimpers but did make sure to mention that the deadly dozen they’ve been using for years is a lot like the new “soil building blends” and seemed to allude to vitalize in particular.

Haven’t watched sturgis in a while but know he advised for brassica plantings to be alone and over-seeded with rye later if at all so you could get more brassica biomass than you would if it were competing with grains upon germination. By mid Nov in central to northern MN, brassicas seem to be the biggest draw (for us without beans and corn) and can get wiped out if there isn’t a lot of them so that seems to make sense to me.

+1 on Higgins, he’s starting to get repetitive but he’s still among the best. My place is also a “doe factory” for much of the season… Except fall

Sturgis has been stealing Paul Knox’s concepts for years.. Paul used to take him to school on Mi Sportsman back in the day..

 

[TenPoint]

Why Higgins?

Sturgis I agree 100%.. Can’t stand the guy.

No idea. I don't listen to either. But that's what the original post was about.

 

[sandbur]

I think those guys (maybe higgins was the first?) really hoodwinked a bunch of the hunters into staying out of the woods the entire month of Oct until "the hunting really gets good" and then the years go by and you watch them dump another booner in Oct. "Hey wait for primetime Nov 8 red moon while I fill all my buck tags over green food sources a month ago", lol

Different properties and the surrounding lands make the difference. For my location where I live, I try to limit access from about Aug. 15 until the firearm season in early Nov. it seems to work. The exception is that I may pick a few apples along the edge for cider. I often take my pickup back there with the windows down and the radio blaring at that time.

My limited bow hunting is another spot. I no longer am an avid bow hunter. During bow season, I often sit in the stand and read a book. The crossbow is hanging on a limb. :)


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[ng270]

I listen/watch a bunch of them. I think there are some good things to take from what they say, especially for an inexperienced habitatter. The biggest thing is that it's just not going to be one size fits all like they make it out to be. You have to see what will work for you. And once they start talking about specific products or "their" proprietary techniques just stick your fingers in your ears.

Higgins is going to be in J Co Saturday, if you are interested. Lost Creek Ag in Oakland Mills. I think they want you to rsvp if you're going?

I didn't go last year when they had him there, but some friends did. They had never heard of him, I never met him in person but remembered well from the days he'd chip in on the old forum. It was interesting to hear my friend's perspective afterwards (pretty positive). For myself, having hunted the Midwest only a few times, I think I understand why the things that are important to him work well for him there. Here in PA and at my place in KY - habitat, patterns of land ownership and land use, terrain, and (human) social factors are all pretty different from the Midwest.

 

[PatinPA]

Higgins is going to be in J Co Saturday, if you are interested. Lost Creek Ag in Oakland Mills. I think they want you to rsvp if you're going?

I didn't go last year when they had him there, but some friends did. They had never heard of him, I never met him in person but remembered well from the days he'd chip in on the old forum. It was interesting to hear my friend's perspective afterwards (pretty positive). For myself, having hunted the Midwest only a few times, I think I understand why the things that are important to him work well for him there. Here in PA and at my place in KY - habitat, patterns of land ownership and land use, terrain, and (human) social factors are all pretty different from the Midwest.

Thanks. I'll be away that day unfortunately or I would go. I'll have to try to make it next year if they have him.

 

[BenAllgood]

Higgins has a pretty simple approach. He just makes the majority of his property a sanctuary and severely limits the human intrusion part. Hunt around the edges on food sources. That's it pretty much in a nutshell. It's not really that much different than Sturgis. Sturgis puts food on the edges and bedding on the other side. It's just some details that they don't agree on like summer food and shared vs separate bedding. I think there's more agreement than there are differences. It's just the differences that they really harp on, but the basic idea of giving the deer secure bedding and feed is at the core. As for their details, I disagree with more of Sturgis' than I do Higgins'. But, the basic approach for stress free food and stress free cover that is at the core of both philosophies, I agree with completely.

 

[chucker66]

Haha I put up a horizontal rubbing post too. I had dreams of the local giant coming down off the neighbors hill to hit up the grape vine scrape and tear into the horizontal rub. I don't even think a deer sniffed it all year. That I got from Ted Miller on the Hunting Public. I watched his giant buck tear in to them. Anything cheap I'll try once. I think the only cost was some wire to tie up the white pine branch that fell off the tree at my house. Now I know that, that doesn't work at least for me.

I did that too and the only pics I got (actually video) of a sow and 3 cubs using it as a jungle gym. That was real fun to watch.

 

[Native Hunter]

My secret method is different than all of the experts. I call it the 1-2-3-4 method:

1. I go into my place early in the year and create so much havoc with chainsaws and other equipment that I run everything off of my place onto the neighbor.

2. Then a few weeks before season, I quit and go home.

3. Then just before season, he moves into his place with 4-whellers, stinking everything up, busting into bedding areas, and runs everything back to me.

4. Then, when season arrives, I ease in quietly and shoot the deer I want.

There - I just saved you some big $$$$$$$ - and I only want you to send me half of what I saved you..........

 

[Howboutthemdawgs]

What I don’t get is how all these “experts” act like the science either isn’t there or doesn’t matter. They speak in truths that actual scientific experiments have disproven. Specifically and especially when it comes to deer movements and bedding. What they say holds no water compared to thousands of gps studies deer.

Oh they are also whores which I guess I get. But I love how midwest whitetails guys just started protein feed program now that they got some company to kick in some dough. So lame. You live in south east Iowa and hunt properties where a)deer don’t need supplemental protein and b) the properties are small enough that a supplemental feed program isn’t even beneficial to you. But…pimp it as long as they pay you. Some idiot will buy it.