Crimson Clover

[yoderjac]

In Louisiana, Durana was the backbone of all my plots. I used oats with it. It is a great combo. In Kentucky, I've had great utilization on crimson from fall through spring. As with anything, climate location and equipment can dictate what's best for your scenario. Experiment until you find what works. I used to do soybeans, jointvetch, cowpeas, wheat, oats, and anything else I could get my hands on. I don't really get too in depth with foodplots anymore. I use them as just a viewing/shooting stage. My focus is getting the other 95% of my property clicking.

Really good point! 90% of our QDM improvement has come from large scale timber management. Food plots are tiny fraction of a deer's diet. From a QDM perspective their primary purpose is to provide a quality food source during the stress periods when nature is stingy. Outside that, they don't benefit deer. It doesn't matter if a deer is eating a quality food I planted or a high quality weed or other native food. It is only when quality native foods are absent that food plots benefit the herd.

If a guy is real lucky, maybe he has 5% of his deer's home range in food plots. Most have less to much less. When we improve native foods through large scale things like opening the canopy, conducting controlled burns, and such, we are addressing that 95% of a deer's diet that food plots don't address.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[SwampCat]

Management goals with food plots should vary depending on what other habitat is readily available. In the south, deer can make it fine with no food plots. But, they will readily and heavily use them - even with natural food sources available. High protein food plots will hold does and fawns in the summer - helping to create a doe factory - if that is what you need to increase deer numbers on your property, like I did on mine. High protein summer food plots are one of the two things most responsible for building my deer here. I have two 120 acre clear cuts, less than six years old, bordering my property. I have about a mile and a half of boundary that borders dense southern swamp. Cedar thickets are the predominant upland cover type in the area. There does not need to be one more acre of cover anywhere near my property. Food is what draws the deer onto my property and into the open - what makes them more huntable. There are no crop fields within eight miles. But, that is this specific piece of land. I have 60 acres eight miles away, and cover is a key component that I have to manage for on that piece of ground. Every piece of ground is a little different.

 

[yoderjac]

Management goals with food plots should vary depending on what other habitat is readily available. In the south, deer can make it fine with no food plots. But, they will readily and heavily use them - even with natural food sources available. High protein food plots will hold does and fawns in the summer - helping to create a doe factory - if that is what you need to increase deer numbers on your property, like I did on mine. High protein summer food plots are one of the two things most responsible for building my deer here. I have two 120 acre clear cuts, less than six years old, bordering my property. I have about a mile and a half of boundary that borders dense southern swamp. Cedar thickets are the predominant upland cover type in the area. There does not need to be one more acre of cover anywhere near my property. Food is what draws the deer onto my property and into the open - what makes them more huntable. There are no crop fields within eight miles. But, that is this specific piece of land. I have 60 acres eight miles away, and cover is a key component that I have to manage for on that piece of ground. Every piece of ground is a little different.

Yep, but high protein food can be native as well. I think the "doe factory" thing is bunch of hooey though. Deer will always be limited by the dirt, climate, and genetics. However, by using food plots to fill the gaps, we can keep our deer herd as healthy as it can be. Granted, different places have different gaps of different sizes. Figuring out where your gaps are is the first step in QDM.

 

[SwampCat]

Yep, but high protein food can be native as well. I think the "doe factory" thing is bunch of hooey though. Deer will always be limited by the dirt, climate, and genetics. However, by using food plots to fill the gaps, we can keep our deer herd as healthy as it can be. Granted, different places have different gaps of different sizes. Figuring out where your gaps are is the first step in QDM.

You are leaving out a couple of big factors that can limit deer - hunting pressure and predation - among some others. In my area, hunting pressure and fawn predation are by far the two biggest limiting factors on our deer herd when speaking of population.

 

[yoderjac]

You are leaving out a couple of big factors that can limit deer - hunting pressure and predation - among some others. In my area, hunting pressure and fawn predation are by far the two biggest limiting factors on our deer herd when speaking of population.

Yep, but in order to do QDM you need to have sufficient scale so that hunting pressure is under your control. Short of sufficient scale, there is a lot we can do to improve hunting, but if you can't control harvest objectives, we can't really have a measurable impact on the herd. As for predation, you are again correct. Fawn predation can be a significant limitation on deer numbers, but less so on deer quality. In fact, it can help keep populations in check with the BCC. Predators tend to take the easiest prey. That would be fawns, sick, and fable. They tend to be sex agnostic. In my area, black bears are the primary fawn predator. Coyotes and also having a significant impact. With some predator species, removing them from the population is a good control mechanism, but with Coyotes, that is not clear. Some studies suggest removing certain individuals from the population have impacts on fertility and sex which could actually drive the population the wrong way. There is no clear control strategy so far. The best proven mechanism to lessen their impact on recruitment is habitat management. Large blocks of good fawning cover seems to reduce their impact and long narrow blocks of good fawning cover seems to increase their impact.
I feel for guys up north with wolves to deal with. Disease is another factor over which we have a minimum of control. We can avoid things that tend to promote additional face to face contact so as not to artificially increase the spread of disease, but there is not much we can do to prevent disease spread. In my general area, EHD, both acute and chronic, is still the most impactful disease. CWD is getting quite close, but so far, the cases are rare. I'm sure in time it will become the biggest problem.

 

[SwampCat]

I think in some ways a lot deer are like a lot of humans. No doubt, there is plenty of high quality deer food across most deer country, and especially the south. But, that being said, it is common to see deer feeding in a soybean or clover field, for an hour at a time, both morning and evening. They will heavily utilize easy, human provided, feeding sources over natural food sources.

I intentionally created “doe factories” after listening to a professional deer manager advise against creating them - summer high protein food sources where does were like to set up shop and raise their fawns and their doe fawns do the same.

That is when I really got serious about providing soybeans and when beans started failing, switched to clover, in an attempt to create a doe factory. It worked - at least the part I wanted to work - a small group of does setting up shop in each of those food plots. I never experienced the bucks leaving as was described with creating a doe factory, but I sure did see an increase in overall deer numbers.

I actually consider the inclusion of the high protein summer food sources, on my home ground, to be - by far - the biggest positive difference maker in my deer herd. On my ground eight miles away, the inclusion of high protein summer food plots doesnt make that much difference.

Now that said, I have not documented a change in weight or body condition of deer with an easy, high protein, human provided summer PLANTED food source. But, I have also not worked with high density, stressed deer herds, either.

 

[yoderjac]

I think a deer's choice of food is quite complex. The food itself and nutritional quality is only one factor. Often, their perceived safety in accessing the food overrides the food. If nature is producing high quality foods at the same time we are producing them, it doesn't matter if the deer eats our foods or the native foods. It is only when nature is not producing high quality foods that our foods really matter from a health standpoint.

I can't say there are no areas where bucks avoid an area with high doe concentrations, but the logic and reason is flawed. Bucks are not avoiding those area because of the does. It is either insufficient sanctuary or high intensity human activity that causes bucks to spend their time elsewhere. It is the perceived risk in accessing the food that is overriding the ease and quality of the food. Mature bucks just weigh safety higher than almost anything else during most of the year (excluding the rut). Of course, when times get very hard and they will tolerate a lot more risk because the need for food is higher. What I don't buy about the "doe factory" idea is that it is the concentration of does that cause mature bucks to vacate.

Does are generally more willing to tolerate risk after fawning and before the rut. During that period, in order to successfully pass on their DNA, their fawns need to develop. Fawns are driven to the easy high quality food and mom joins. Generally, I see fawns enter a field first and mom waits in the cover for a bit before emerging. Generally the rut changes this as they leave their fawns behind and they can become less risk tolerant sooner due to hunting pressure.

As for measurable improvement in weight and antler size, I can feel your pain. We own way too little land to do QDM and expect measurable results. Fortunately, we have adjoining land that either willingly or, in some cases, unknowingly cooperates. Even with this we are undersized. We are closing in on 15 years of QDM. The biologist that runs our DMAP program says he can see improvement in some of the metrics, but I can't convince myself that they are statistically significant yet. If they are really there in the data, they are quite small at best.

Having said that, we are having a blast doing QDM and enjoying the ride. Overall wildlife has be doing very well. Turkey are flourishing on our land. We took 6 long beards off a couple hundred acres this spring and still have at least 3 or 4 running around as well as a bunch of jakes.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[SwampCat]

Yep, but in order to do QDM you need to have sufficient scale so that hunting pressure is under your control. Short of sufficient scale, there is a lot we can do to improve hunting, but if you can't control harvest objectives, we can't really have a measurable impact on the herd. As for predation, you are again correct. Fawn predation can be a significant limitation on deer numbers, but less so on deer quality. In fact, it can help keep populations in check with the BCC. Predators tend to take the easiest prey. That would be fawns, sick, and fable. They tend to be sex agnostic. In my area, black bears are the primary fawn predator. Coyotes and also having a significant impact. With some predator species, removing them from the population is a good control mechanism, but with Coyotes, that is not clear. Some studies suggest removing certain individuals from the population have impacts on fertility and sex which could actually drive the population the wrong way. There is no clear control strategy so far. The best proven mechanism to lessen their impact on recruitment is habitat management. Large blocks of good fawning cover seems to reduce their impact and long narrow blocks of good fawning cover seems to increase their impact.
I feel for guys up north with wolves to deal with. Disease is another factor over which we have a minimum of control. We can avoid things that tend to promote additional face to face contact so as not to artificially increase the spread of disease, but there is not much we can do to prevent disease spread. In my general area, EHD, both acute and chronic, is still the most impactful disease. CWD is getting quite close, but so far, the cases are rare. I'm sure in time it will become the biggest problem.

Speaking strictly for myself, fortunately, after 45 years of making a living working in the natural resource field, I have learned to be more open minded and work outside of the box. I have actually learned and understood more in the last ten years, than I did the first 35 years. Some of those things I have learned are in direct contradiction to some of the things you believe - or ar least a different way to evaluate success - and I too, believed some of those same things ten years ago until I proved them wrong - at least in my situation and on my property.

In my opinion, one of the best things about managing my land is I am still learning - and I hope that is always the case.

 

[yoderjac]

Speaking strictly for myself, fortunately, after 45 years of making a living working in the natural resource field, I have learned to be more open minded and work outside of the box. I have actually learned and understood more in the last ten years, than I did the first 35 years. Some of those things I have learned are in direct contradiction to some of the things you believe - or ar least a different way to evaluate success - and I too, believed some of those same things ten years ago until I proved them wrong - at least in my situation and on my property.

In my opinion, one of the best things about managing my land is I am still learning - and I hope that is always the case.

I couldn't agree more. I keep an open mind and when evidence and data change, I'm happy to change directions. I've evolved quite a bit over time from a management perspective. From a 2-bottom plow, the latest BOB seed trend, and wanting to shoot big bucks, to soil health, weed tolerance, permaculture, and sustainability, and introducing new folks to hunting. I too have learned more in the last 10 years than the previous 35 and I hope to learn even more in the next 10.

I completely respect your perspective. One of the things that I've learned is that deer are not monolithic. Folks in different places can have very different experiences that are often conflicting and both are dealing with "deer". They are such adaptable creatures that behavior can vary a huge amount as they bump up against their environment. Deer in the suburbs where I live behave completely different than deer at my rural farm. Deer on nearby heavily hunted land behave somewhat differently. Deer in the the big woods are very different as well. In the mountains of PA where I grew up there was a distinct up/down movement due to the thermals. Here in rolling country there is no such thing. Where i grew up, ad deer trail looked like a cow path as most every deer in the areas followed the most efficient path in the rugged terrain. Here, deer meander along general corridors with no distinct trails. These are just a few examples.

Deer are amazing creatures and I continue to learn about them.

 

[bornagain62511]

Hey Jack, sorry if you already covered it. I haven't read through this thread yet, but was actually thinking of planting winter rye, crimson clover, and radishes in our late summer plots. What's a good rate of seed per acre for these 3 in a mix? I was thinking like 30 pounds of rye, 12 pounds of crimson clover, and 4 pounds of radish per acre.. Does that sound good, or how would you adjust those rates and why?

thanks!

 

[yoderjac]

Hey Jack, sorry if you already covered it. I haven't read through this thread yet, but was actually thinking of planting winter rye, crimson clover, and radishes in our late summer plots. What's a good rate of seed per acre for these 3 in a mix? I was thinking like 30 pounds of rye, 12 pounds of crimson clover, and 4 pounds of radish per acre.. Does that sound good, or how would you adjust those rates and why?

thanks!

Brassica can take up a lot of resources if planted too heavily. In general, I like to keep my brassica component of a mix down to 2-3 lbs/ac. Radish seeds are larger and lighter than say turnips, so if radish is your only brassica component, you can probably go to 4 lbs/ac. WR rates I use are typically between 80 and 100 lbs/ac. Crimson 10-12 lbs/ac is about right.

Keep in mind these are just a ball park starting point. A lot will depend on your germination rates and soils, weather, and planting technique all have an effect. I see no problem going with the rates you list and then adjusting next season when you see the results.

Timing will depend on your primary purpose. For deer, radish tops tend to be the primary attractant and food source from radish. The tubers are used later if there is not a lot of other quality food. From a soil perspective, daikon radish is considered organic tillage as large tubers mine deep into the soil and drive OM to lower levels as they decay. So, if I needed the organic tillage (say heavy clay or very sandy soil) I would plant earlier to increase tuber size. If my soils were in pretty good shape, I'd probably plant later to provide more attraction during the hunting season.

Best of luck,

Jack

 

[Wild Thing]

I just posted a few pics of Crimson Clover which I included in my Brassica mix last July. I am in the U.P. of Michigan in Zone 4a (or 4b depending upon who you believe). I have never planted CC because I always believed I was too far north to have it survive winter. Last year I finally decided it was time to find out for sure and I can tell you that it definitely survived our winter - although last winter here was pretty mild actually.

spring planted winter rye? (post #143 on page 8) The clovers in the mix were 2#/acre.

I also included some CC in my cover crop last August and it is doing very well also...



Here you can see Crimson Clover, Medium Red Clover and Hairy Vetch which were a part of this 12-seed cover crop. Both clovers were mixed at 2#/acre and the vetch @ 3#/acre.



Now that I know that Crimson Clover will survive up here, it will be a staple in my brassica and cover crop mixes.

 

[bornagain62511]

I agree Wildthing, I was surprised to learn years ago that late summer/fall planted crimson clover survives our winters here in Wisconsin as well..I plan to do the same each year. Roughly 1/3rd our plots will be rye/crimson clover/radish, another 1/3rd in Winfred/purle top turnips, and the other 1/3rd I will have in in alfalfa/ red clover for 3 to 4 years which provides hay for my goats in addition to being excellent deer food and soil builder.

 

[Bassattackr]

WT - Love those plot pics. Something about the CC/HV combination makes for a gorgeous spring! Not to mention great fawning habitat with the cereals mixed in..

 

[Wild Thing]

Thanks Bassattacker - This is my 6th season since going 100% no-till and cover cropping. My soils are really coming along well and my need for fertilizer inputs is rapidly dwindling (finally) now that I am planting a much more diverse cover crop mix, which was a 12 seed variety last year. They all contribute to raising the Organic Matter and increasing Nutrient levels.

And you are right - it makes for very nice fawning cover this time of year.

 

[bigbendmarine]

I've posted on crimson before and LOVE it both for the color and forage value it provides, but here in Florida it's a super early bloomer and also first to dry up, though blessedly it reseeds great and I've got nice stands of it that were on my place before I bought it in 2013 and are still going strong without ANY intervention outside of mowing it once dried (brown here by mid-May).

To address the timing, I've got arrowleaf mixed in at some spots along with several purer stands of arrowleaf. The arrowleaf grows taller with more mass and really starts kicking in right as the crimson is giving up the ghost. The arrowleaf here gives up the ghost around early June, and again it reseeds extremely well just like the crimson by mowing once brown.

To round things out, I keep a number of dedicated spots planted with white clovers (play with all the white types). The white lasts on into late summer here as long as it doesn't see drought conditions for too long of a period of time.

Appreciating my climate's quite a bit different than many on the forum, I mainly share just to say I do see value in using a variety of clovers here in the deep south versus sticking to one single type as all contribute at slightly different times and thus help serve different functions such as crimson giving a boost to pregnant does and bucks right after horns fall, arrowleaf giving nutrition during early horn growth, and the white feeding all deer throughout late spring and the summer and a favorite spot for does with fawns.