Brassicas = lots of deer. Everything else = not many deer. (Late season)

[BJE80]

So I've had very good luck attacking deer with Brassicas but I've had very little luck attacking deer when I don't plant brassicas. Perhaps my plots are too small for WR to make it worth it? The clover does well for early season but it isn't a good source by the time I really start hunting at the start of the rut. I need ideas of small kill plot (~1/3 acre) of what to plant in the off year of brassicas to make those plots worth something. My deer density is not that high. WR just doesn't seem to bring them in much at all. I do not need a over winter source since the deer leave for the AG anyway. I just need something for them to hammer like the brassicas during the rut and gun season. .

Also, I've heard of so many people say don't do brassicas two years in a row. But then I talk to people that do Brassicas two years in a row with no problems. Very conflicting.

 

[bueller]

I've done brassicas multiple years with no ill effects but my plots are small and the deer consume everything before spring. WR does well for us until the snow falls, even if it's just a couple inches. Seems like the deer don't "waste" their time and effort to dig through the snow to get to the rye. Maybe if planted earlier it would be a different story.

 

[BJE80]

I've done brassicas multiple years with no ill effects but my plots are small and the deer consume everything before spring. WR does well for us until the snow falls, even if it's just a couple inches. Seems like the deer don't "waste" their time and effort to dig through the snow to get to the rye. Maybe if planted earlier it would be a different story.

Bingo on the snow and Rye Bueller!!!!!!!


I still have tunrips and radish in one of plots. They are still hammering it and are digging it up. Love seeing that.

How many years have you gone with Brassicas in a row?

 

[bueller]

I think 4 years. But drought pretty much didn't allow too much growth in one of those. And I usually plant a spring crop ahead of the brassicas so there is some sort of a rotation happening.

 

[phil@thesidehill]

if you can expand the plot, why not split the plot between brassicas and the LC cereal mix then rotate between the two every year? that is essentially what i have done with my little .42 acre plot. Going a little heavier on some of the legumes in the LC mix will help add N for the following brassica planting. then in the spring frost seed some clover into the spent brassicas so you keep some food on the table and roots in the soil.

 

[BJE80]

if you can expand the plot, why not split the plot between brassicas and the LC cereal mix then rotate between the two every year? that is essentially what i have done with my little .42 acre plot. Going a little heavier on some of the legumes in the LC mix will help add N for the following brassica planting. then in the spring frost seed some clover into the spent brassicas so you keep some food on the table and roots in the soil.

Nothing seems to grow in my plots in spring. At least the past two years. Too much standing water till June after the snow melt with the clay. That is something to consider but my plots are not getting bigger for at least one or two years till my logging happens. That is something to do in the future no doubt.

 

[wiscwhip]

What types of clover are you planting in those wet, clay soils? I think you still need to stick with the rye in those areas in addition to your brassicas. If you maintain a good amount of rye in those areas the large root systems of the rye could potentially help suck up that moisture and help to dry it out sooner. Also, you will have less issues with the back to back brassicas if you do. The rye will help to break the "pest" cycle in the brassica planting. You can plant the brassicas right into the rye, especially if it is newly planted. Plant the rye a couple weeks before you normally plant your brassicas. If you are worried the rye will not allow good germination, go heavy on the radish, the larger seeds are normally not affected by the allelopathic affects that rye has on smaller seeds, although the allelopathic affects of rye are most prominent right before and after it matures and is harvested, not much at all when it is young. The large, deep growing tubers of the radish should help with water infiltration into that clay the following spring as well. If the rye seems too tall, mow it before you plant the brassicas. I asked about the clovers because Ladino and alsike usually do very well in the conditions you are describing. You can also plant into the clover if you mow it short right before planting your brassicas and it is not too overly thick of a stand that it would shade out the baby brassica plants. If you keep other plantings growing in that soil at all times, you most likely will not have to worry about the issues caused by consecutive years of brassicas.

 

[BJE80]

What types of clover are you planting in those wet, clay soils? I think you still need to stick with the rye in those areas in addition to your brassicas. If you maintain a good amount of rye in those areas the large root systems of the rye could potentially help suck up that moisture and help to dry it out sooner. Also, you will have less issues with the back to back brassicas if you do. The rye will help to break the "pest" cycle in the brassica planting. You can plant the brassicas right into the rye, especially if it is newly planted. Plant the rye a couple weeks before you normally plant your brassicas. If you are worried the rye will not allow good germination, go heavy on the radish, the larger seeds are normally not affected by the allelopathic affects that rye has on smaller seeds, although the allelopathic affects of rye are most prominent right before and after it matures and is harvested, not much at all when it is young. The large, deep growing tubers of the radish should help with water infiltration into that clay the following spring as well. If the rye seems too tall, mow it before you plant the brassicas. I asked about the clovers because Ladino and alsike usually do very well in the conditions you are describing. You can also plant into the clover if you mow it short right before planting your brassicas and it is not too overly thick of a stand that it would shade out the baby brassica plants. If you keep other plantings growing in that soil at all times, you most likely will not have to worry about the issues caused by consecutive years of brassicas.

When I did clover I did a mix of Aslike and Ladino for the reasons you stated. It did OK. Putting Rye in with the Brassicas might be the ticket. Perhaps that is why some people have good luck with brassicas in consecutive years while others do not and that is simply to have some diversity with other plants growing.

 

[dipper]

#1 your planting your plot too late. I couldn't plant my plots till August this year like the experts say, and my plots are pretty much useless at this point. In the dipper rotation thread it's all about planting multiple species together. Basically the lc mix all at the same time. It's automatic, this pic. is from beginning from March 2014 under 3' of snow. This cocktail was also very productive during the entire season

 

[wiscwhip]

Yup, exactly what dipper has been doing all along(you have to be patient dipper, many folks are still in the mindset from the darkside and other sources that planting the way you do is taboo and will have failures). If you plant it early enough, your rye will be tall enough to make it worthwhile for the deer to dig through the snow to get to it. 10"-12" tall rye plants are worth digging for, 4" plants, not so much. Really tall, unmowed clover(and even alfalfa) will also be utilized in much the same way. It is funny that folks will tell you that deer will not eat tall, stemmy red clover, but in the winter I see mature red clover hay fields that get hammered when there is a foot of snow on the ground. The deer are not stupid, they know that the clover, no matter how stemmy, is still better tasting and better for them than bark and twigs. What do you think would be better, a clover stem under a few inches of snow or a frozen twig exposed to the temperature and wind? I don't care how stemmy the clover is, it is still easier to digest than woody browse and the deer know it as well.

 

[kabic]

Yup, exactly what dipper has been doing all along(you have to be patient dipper, many folks are still in the mindset from the darkside and other sources that planting the way you do is taboo and will have failures). If you plant it early enough, your rye will be tall enough to make it worthwhile for the deer to dig through the snow to get to it. 10"-12" tall rye plants are worth digging for, 4" plants, not so much. Really tall, unmowed clover(and even alfalfa) will also be utilized in much the same way. It is funny that folks will tell you that deer will not eat tall, stemmy red clover, but in the winter I see mature red clover hay fields that get hammered when there is a foot of snow on the ground. The deer are not stupid, they know that the clover, no matter how stemmy, is still better tasting and better for them than bark and twigs. What do you think would be better, a clover stem under a few inches of snow or a frozen twig exposed to the temperature and wind? I don't care how stemmy the clover is it is still easier to digest than woody browse and the deer know it as well.

I'm moving this direction with my small plot. I need to get some taller plants in there that deer will still seek out after it snows. I didn't mow my clover much past spring and I still dont see much digging for it. The turnips that I planted about 4 weeks too late I do see a little bit of digging in. I'm thinking maybe I should mow the clover short around July 4th, over seed with rye, turnips and radishes and let it go. The only worry I have it getting the rain needed in July.

 

[wiscwhip]

I would say that what you are proposing would be a worthwhile experiment kabic. This is the direction we were moving to as well, before my dad sold his place a couple years back, although without the clover. We had a perpetually reseeding rye plot for 2 years, until my dad decided to mow down and disc the not quite mature rye after it had just formed seed and we ended up with a plot full of nothing but sandburs.:mad: We planted turnips into the standing rye the first 2 years and got a good amount of germination and mature plants, even though we were planting into beach sand. The year we had the sandbur issue, we did not plant that plot, but we had intended to seed heavily with radish and some turnips and rape.

 

[dipper]

I'm moving this direction with my small plot. I need to get some taller plants in there that deer will still seek out after it snows. I didn't mow my clover much past spring and I still dont see much digging for it. The turnips that I planted about 4 weeks too late I do see a little bit of digging in. I'm thinking maybe I should mow the clover short around July 4th, over seed with rye, turnips and radishes and let it go. The only worry I have it getting the rain needed in July.

That isn't going to work, you need to suppress it.

 

[bueller]

That isn't going to work, you need to suppress it.

I tried suppressing my red clover this year with about 1.5 qts/acre of gly but it pretty much killed it off. I didn't mind much as I was going to brassicas which grew very well this year.

 

[bwoods11]

For Minnesotans and anyone farther north we need to start looking at the plant date of August 1st??

Personally I have found that in most years, that is too late. I am now looking at July (rain forecast) is high.

Did one plot last year in July and it turned out nice, the ones in August were nothing

 

[BJE80]

I've been planting brassicas mid July. I admit my ceral grains should of been planted at the same time now after looking at them. I think I planted 2nd week of Aug last year.

 

[wiscwhip]

I tried suppressing my red clover this year with about 1.5 qts/acre of gly but it pretty much killed it off. I didn't mind much as I was going to brassicas which grew very well this year.

I do believe that red clover is a bit more susceptible to being killed by gly than white clover. The gly rate that would set back white clover will be likely to kill more red clover plants if you sprayed at the same rates. I have no proof of this, just anecdotal evidence from farm work that I have done in the past. I believe it has something to do with the way the 2 clovers differ in the way they go into summer dormancy. Again, no proof, just observations.

 

[phil@thesidehill]

I'm a little bit confused about deer digging through snow more for taller plants than for shorter ones? Aside from corn and beans which have some pretty stout stems and stalks I cant see how anything burried under 3ft of snow whether it is 3" or 12" is any more available to the deer within the "snow profile" for lack of a better term. Doesn't the snow just lay it all flat underneath all that weight? Around here we certainly don't get the snow load that you upper midwest guys get, but that said with less snow i see that pretty much everything lays flat under the snow. we get some mid winter warm ups that will give us bare ground and i don't see much height difference between my brassicas, clovers, and rye/oats after a few weeks of 10"-12"+ of snow on them. Of course my brassica greens are usually decimated before the snow, so it is mostly stems and bulbs. But clovers and cereals are all pretty much flush to the ground. hell, even goldenrod which has a pretty stout stem gets laid flat to the ground under snow around here.

Do you guys get mainly light fluffy powdery snow? I'm not saying what you're observing doesn't happen, but I'm just having a hard time picturing it?

 

[wiscwhip]

phil, 3' is 3' and all the way around your pretty much screwed, even corn is questionable in that much snow unless you got a very good, tall crop(most of the food plot corn I am accustomed to seeing rarely gets above 6' or 7' tall, unlike some of the guys on here who grow 10' tall corn plots like they are on 250 bushel/acre prime ground in the cornbelt). Most of the time beans will not hold up under that much snow either. I was talking snow cover in the 10" to 16" range at the beginning of the snowy season, like we see this time of year. The taller plants give the deer more weeks of food than they would have if it were 3" tall. Will these taller plants feed them under the heavy snowfall amounts that accumulate in late January or February, most likely not, but they will maximize the plot usage during the early months of winter, so they do not have to rely on woody browse for as many weeks during the long northern winters. Any advantage you can provide is worth the minimal effort to get your plantings done a few weeks earlier to allow for taller growth. When you have good snow cover and minimal melting, it can be pretty easy to dig through 12" of snow, and unless it is the heavy, wet type of snow, one would be ok at that snow depth. Now, with heavy wet snowfalls, freezing rain on top of existing snow, or constant thawing and refreezing of the snowpack, the benefits go away quickly under those types of conditions, even with only a foot of snow and taller plants. I have observed many alfalfa/red clover fields that are in drift prone areas on hilltops where the wind keeps the snow from completely piling up that are dug up and browsed on throughout the whole winter.

 

[bueller]

I'm a little bit confused about deer digging through snow more for taller plants than for shorter ones? Aside from corn and beans which have some pretty stout stems and stalks I cant see how anything burried under 3ft of snow whether it is 3" or 12" is any more available to the deer within the "snow profile" for lack of a better term. Doesn't the snow just lay it all flat underneath all that weight? Around here we certainly don't get the snow load that you upper midwest guys get, but that said with less snow i see that pretty much everything lays flat under the snow. we get some mid winter warm ups that will give us bare ground and i don't see much height difference between my brassicas, clovers, and rye/oats after a few weeks of 10"-12"+ of snow on them. Of course my brassica greens are usually decimated before the snow, so it is mostly stems and bulbs. But clovers and cereals are all pretty much flush to the ground. hell, even goldenrod which has a pretty stout stem gets laid flat to the ground under snow around here.

Do you guys get mainly light fluffy powdery snow? I'm not saying what you're observing doesn't happen, but I'm just having a hard time picturing it?

I believe it's more of an issue whether or not the deer choose to dig down through the snow for particular crops and that height of the crop is a factor, but not the deciding factor. My turnip bulbs are flush with the ground and they got hammer no matter the snow depth until they are all gone. My rye plots go almost untouched after just a couple inches. Picture trying to take a bite of a blade of rye in snow. What do you get more of, rye or snow? Now picture a taking a bite off of a turnip bulb under the same conditions. Alot more food for the effort.