Are the glory days of deer hunting coming to a close?

[Mortenson]

I would personally be on the 1 buck side of it. But it doesn't matter because in my county it's infinity bucks.

 

[BenA]

The argument is that they can freely take out older age deer with inferior antlers (cull) with two tags. With one tag, folks would be less likely to manage their herd without this flexibility.

Don Higgins says the same thing for IL, fwiw.

Makes sense for a select few properties or neighborhoods that already have a filled out age structure (like I singled out in my post). But, for the majority of areas, I don't see that being reality. Where do you have an age structure of bucks where you have the luxury of excess amounts of bucks in mature age classes? Just people having the idea that they have the opportunity to have a mulligan buck leads to less restraint when it comes time to pull the trigger.

 

[MN Slick]

There is an example in Iowa where the buck quality actually went down after going to one buck. Don't hold me to the details, but the Amana Colonies is roughly 26,000 acres of restricted access hunting. Around 20 years ago it was changed from 2 bucks to one buck and the buck quality has gone down. The theory is that one buck has led to more high grading because guys used to shoot the first decent buck, which was often a management buck, then hold our for a hero. Now they are waiting for a great buck, which is often a high potential 3 or 4 year old.

I believe they are going back to 2 bucks tags so it will be interesting to see if the quality returns.

 

[Mortenson]

I've heard the Amana colonies mentioned and always wondered what it was about. I guess I had assumed it was a location that was already getting all shot out and they were trying to save it, or bring it back. I didn't realize the prevailing thought was that a 1 buck limit is what caused the downfall.

 

[Brian662]

Makes sense for a select few properties or neighborhoods that already have a filled out age structure (like I singled out in my post). But, for the majority of areas, I don't see that being reality. Where do you have an age structure of bucks where you have the luxury of excess amounts of bucks in mature age classes? Just people having the idea that they have the opportunity to have a mulligan buck leads to less restraint when it comes time to pull the trigger.

Yeah, I generally agree but I think some areas of Iowa specifically probably have the age structure you reference.

Two bucks in MN would be a death sentence, but that's mostly because of the gun season timing. Two bucks (one gun, one bow) in WI works just fine due to the later gun season.

 

[BenA]

There is an example in Iowa where the buck quality actually went down after going to one buck. Don't hold me to the details, but the Amana Colonies is roughly 26,000 acres of restricted access hunting. Around 20 years ago it was changed from 2 bucks to one buck and the buck quality has gone down. The theory is that one buck has led to more high grading because guys used to shoot the first decent buck, which was often a management buck, then hold our for a hero. Now they are waiting for a great buck, which is often a high potential 3 or 4 year old.

I believe they are going back to 2 bucks tags so it will be interesting to see if the quality returns.

Sounds like an isolated, special circumstance. I'd love to read see some data from that. Are there any links to harvest history or anything other than anecdotes? I could see that happening maybe if it was becoming popular and the restriction was put in place to limit bucks. But, then the pressure or habitat or something was still limiting the bucks. I'd really like to read about it without it just being hunters saying we used to kill some bigger bucks here. Correlation doesn't always mean causation.

 

[Wind Gypsy]

Ok. Thought experiment time try to take yourself out of the equation and be an unbiased observer.

Hunter 1:

Hunts out west for elk and mule deer. Has a seekins ph3 6 creedmoor and reloads. Has killing velocity out to 700 yards with well established dope using online calculator. 1200 dollar mil dot scope 2-12x with quick drop dope reticle tailored to hand loaded ammo. Carbon fiber tripod and bipod for stable shots.

Swaro German binos 12x. Laser cut glass and high tech film to gather every bit of light. 15-18x spotting scope with ame high tech glass. These sit on carbon fiber tripod that weighs less than two pounds. Easy to pack in and can glass all day.

Laser rangefinder built into binos or handheld. Can range an animal to 1800 yards.

4 trail cams that he put out at beginning of hunt. He checks the cards daily as he stalks the route he’s been planning with onx gps for months. He has his Garmen inreach to call with any emergencies.

Carbon fiber framed backpack with all the goodies. Synthetic clothes to keep you warm. LED headlamps. A multitool with all you need. Down sleeping bags good to 0 degrees. Freeze dried meals for instant food on your insta boil propane burner. Space age tent that weighs two pounds that provides great protection from elements. Don’t forget inflatable or memory foam ground pad under the sleeping bag.

Hunter 2:
Hunts on his families 200 acres. Uses a 30-06 his grandfather used good to 300 yards with a vortex scope. Has 8x vortex binos and no range finder. Uses old wool vest and long John’s he’s had for years.

He and his cousins have two cell cams on the property that they all share an account for to check deer on their one green field. His wife gave him a 240 thermal that cost 700 dollars from temu for Christmas. He’s pumped when he sees a blurry red blob out at the end of the field a few steps still in the woods.


Do you think an unbiased observer would say
Hunter 1: man he is doing it right. What a mountain man fair chasing those elk
Hunter 2: he is over the line. Technology is ruining hunting.

We are all so biased by our personal experiences. The boogey man is not right around the corner ruining hunting. For many many here, hunting is the best it has ever been WITH new tech. The other have to get used to it. Look at me as an Alabama fan. I have to get used to not being the best, even though I’ve had it great for 20 years. Things change. Adapt, be happy, and move on. And maybe look at ourselves first and the advantages we happily take advantage of before looking at others and saying “that’s over the line.”

My concern is not focused on evaluating one type of hunter as more "correct" or "pure" than the other but rather what these technologies could mean for animal populations and hunting as a whole. I'm not even saying any new technology after X time and place should be banned. Rather it should be looked at individually based on impact on hunting as a whole. You'll find me arguing in support of weapons restrictions on Rokslide in specific locations where muleys/elk are particularly vulnerable to modern long range shooting.

Finding a mature animal is the hardest part in killing one. Finding one and knowing exactly where he is is 95% of the battle. All this technology makes doing so magnitudes easier than it was before it existed. In areas of animal scarcity, there is near zero chance for any animal of decent genetics to mature if there are zero technology limitations. Everyone is going to be finding the same bucks/bulls/whatever with thermal drones if we decide that is ok. Not only will there be next to no "special" animals for the really invested hunters to even find, good freakin luck to the guys who are casual hunters. Maybe they'll be OK with shooting does and yearlings because the older age pop is wiped out. Id be happy to eliminate cell cams and thermals for big game but drones more than anything are a disaster if they are allowed IMO.

 

[Howboutthemdawgs]

I don’t think the average ky hunter is managing at a level where the thought about age class is entering their consciousness. It’s all about the first decent buck. If you give them the ability to get two of those…game over. They will take it 100 out of 100 times. One buck is the only thing saving ky from being North Carolina…no offense North Carolina but by and large the deer hunting sucks. Kentucky is too easy to kill bucks. Iowa is different cause they he average hunter seems to understand how good it can be.

 

[Mortenson]

Iowa is different cause they he average hunter seems to understand how good it can be.

I'm not even sure if that's true. The guys at IW have been admitting they're kinda a niche group of diehards and that they don't represent the majority. Iowa has crops and a December gun season, after the rut. I get the feeling the jist of their thread is the same as ours. Technology and more liberal laws plus disease is too much to overcome.

 

[Howboutthemdawgs]

I'm not even sure if that's true. The guys at IW have been admitting they're kinda a niche group of diehards and that they don't represent the majority. Iowa has crops and a December gun season, after the rut. I get the feeling the jist of their thread is the same as ours. Technology and more liberal laws plus disease is too much to overcome.

I agree. I’ve read that from them too but I think we are swimming in different pools. Plus they have a lot fewer of the guys willing to shoot the first decent buck just from a number of hunters standpoint.

 

[Mortenson]

I have a buddy who's out hunting right now and wants his first deer of the season for the freezer. Just video clipped a pretty solid 8 walking under his stand. Said he couldn't do it. It's the final weekend of IL's season thank God and he's only 22. Need more like him.

 

[MN Slick]

Sounds like an isolated, special circumstance. I'd love to read see some data from that. Are there any links to harvest history or anything other than anecdotes? I could see that happening maybe if it was becoming popular and the restriction was put in place to limit bucks. But, then the pressure or habitat or something was still limiting the bucks. I'd really like to read about it without it just being hunters saying we used to kill some bigger bucks here. Correlation doesn't always mean causation.

I'm not sure there is any official data or if it's just anecdotal. If the population is down signifcantly in Amana, like much of the state, it could simply be too much hunting pressure on high potential bucks.

 

[BenA]

I'm not sure there is any official data or if it's just anecdotal. If the population is down signifcantly in Amana, like much of the state, it could simply be too much hunting pressure on high potential bucks.

Yeah, I'm more inclined to believe that than a restriction limiting the bucks killed made the bucks worse. It would have to be something like increased pressure, poaching, disease, population increase, etc. to make the bucks quality go down. Just notoriety for an area can increase poaching even if it seems everyone is looking out for them. There are still unscrupulous people that will be able to go in and take some of the top bucks out regardless of the perceived security.

 

[Wind Gypsy]

Yeah, I'm more inclined to believe that than a restriction limiting the bucks killed made the bucks worse. It would have to be something like increased pressure, poaching, disease, population increase, etc. to make the bucks quality go down. Just notoriety for an area can increase poaching even if it seems everyone is looking out for them. There are still unscrupulous people that will be able to go in and take some of the top bucks out regardless of the perceived security.

which is another argument against drones/thermals.

 

[Ben.MN/WI]

I wish I knew more about the traditions and history of the mid-west big woods. I'm sure it's similar to the Northeast big woods. The one thing northern Maine has going for it is the massive amounts of logging. All of that logging equals massive amounts of early successional growth. Tens of thousands of square miles of private land owned by paper companies and timber corporations but that is open to the public.

But you nailed it....feels like it will never happen...until it does.

Northern MN and WI have lots of public land, but also lots of wolves. Some of the deer densities are so low they are essentially not worth hunting, but you can certainly try!

20 years ago there was a family in NE MN that shot some giant bucks and found piles of sheds, but the wolf population and bad winters changed things. A friend of mine just got back from a grouse hunting trip on the edge of the boundary waters on public land. He said deer were non-existent there and buck sign was also not present. He said there was a little wolf sign, but it isn't surprising the wolves weren't there in large numbers since there weren't any deer.

 

[Ben.MN/WI]

Yeah, I generally agree but I think some areas of Iowa specifically probably have the age structure you reference.

Two bucks in MN would be a death sentence, but that's mostly because of the gun season timing. Two bucks (one gun, one bow) in WI works just fine due to the later gun season.

Isn't your MN property in the CWD zone with unlimited buck tags?

My properties have unlimited tags - you can kill a buck with a bow, one with a gun, one with a muzzleloader and unlimited bucks with the bonus CWD seasons.

 

[Wind Gypsy]

Northern MN and WI have lots of public land, but also lots of wolves. Some of the deer densities are so low they are essentially not worth hunting, but you can certainly try!

20 years ago there was a family in NE MN that shot some giant bucks and found piles of sheds, but the wolf population and bad winters changed things. A friend of mine just got back from a grouse hunting trip on the edge of the boundary waters on public land. He said deer were non-existent there and buck sign was also not present. He said there was a little wolf sign, but it isn't surprising the wolves weren't there in large numbers since there weren't any deer.

30+% wolf population decline measured in the voyageurs wolf project study over the last 2 years. 20% pup survival rate. They attribute that almost entirely to lack of deer to sustain the wolves.

 

[Brian662]

Isn't your MN property in the CWD zone with unlimited buck tags?

My properties have unlimited tags - you can kill a buck with a bow, one with a gun, one with a muzzleloader and unlimited bucks with the bonus CWD seasons.

Negative, I'm in the 200's

 

[SwampCat]

I'm not even sure if that's true. The guys at IW have been admitting they're kinda a niche group of diehards and that they don't represent the majority. Iowa has crops and a December gun season, after the rut. I get the feeling the jist of their thread is the same as ours. Technology and more liberal laws plus disease is too much to overcome.

That is pretty obvious when something like 50% of the harvest is 1 1/2 yr old bucks. It is fairly evident, by far the majority of hunters aint on Lakosky’s place.