Are the glory days of deer hunting coming to a close?

[Bowsnbucks]

Absolutely. And I can already see the angle that will played against me…if I’m not hunting in loincloth with a slingshot then I’m a hypocrite. Fine. We all are to a degree.
I hunt alone on 650 acres. I only hunt with a bow out of hang on stands or occasionally a climber. I dont hunt over bait or flood my properties with 800 cameras so I can watch deer diddle themselves. Yes I hunt over shitty food plots I work on every year but I’ll never be convinced that’s the same as baiting. I also pass on a hell of a lot of deer with potential and some that are “trophies” in an effort to achieve that next level. To put it honest, I’m the neighbor 99% of the country would love to have. With that said I don’t think my neighbors have to do what I do. That’s ridiculous.
You had the opportunity to do something 99.9% of the hunting population doesn’t have the chance to do and basically said (I’m putting words to your actions so forgive if they aren’t spot on) I don’t agree with your actions, even if they are legal, and I’m taking matters into my own hands. Now I’ll save you my opinions of high fences, for the record I’m not 100% against them, I just don’t want to debate that here. But I can’t and won’t fence so I’m at the mercy of hoping regulations and ethics win out to preserve quality hunting. I define quality as hunting deer within a balanced age structure. Right now I can promise you my property and most properties I know of are not fishing in that pond. We have a huge skew towards too many does, immature bucks and a few high graded misfits. Is that our role as managers? I don’t think so but maybe I’m getting into the ethics too much? I have stated before in my 30 years of hunting I’ve seen regulations relaxed several times over in an effort to make it easier to take game (bucks). My hill to die on is no less relevant than the guy who wants “to let everyone hunt the way they want to hunt as long as it’s legal”. Remember a lot of what we are allowed to legally do today was illegal at some point. So 20 years ago if you said baiting is wrong and illegal as a Georgia resident, technically you were right. Today you say that and you are a dick who can’t let people live and let live. And then to throw on top of the relaxed regulations, the technology has improved exponentially over the last couple years.
Soooo all that said I’m trying in vain and maybe selfishly, to do what I think is right for the species and the experience, no different than the guy who is advocating for crossbows or legalization of bait.

Not here to tell folks in other states what to do, but I agree with a lot of what you said. I started hunting in 1970, so I have 55 years at it. This is what I've seen here in Pa.
Hunters are more selective now, opting to let smaller bucks walk & hopefully grow into a more mature buck. AR put new regs to what bucks are legal, and those regs definitely helped in that regard. We still have hunters who are only looking to fill freezers, but the "brown - it's down" crowd has reduced. In my younger years, I'd shoot anything that was legal, which included a 1-horn spike. But before AR came to be here, I decided I wasn't going to kill just any legal buck to fill a tag or brag about. That was my decision alone. I've taken a good number of deer over the years, but the ones that gave me the most satisfaction and stick in my memory are the bigger, mature bucks. The challenge of woodsmanship, reading the terrain, sign, and wind to position myself to get a shot at a big one - made my satisfaction level go skyward. That's just me, and my preferences. I've passed on legal bucks here over the last 15 to 20 years with no regrets.

Due to our PGC selling insane numbers of doe tags for a number of years, deer populations here were getting skimpy in a lot of places around the state. In our camp's local area, numerous other camps saw fewer & fewer deer - and deer tracks in the snow. Since deer don't fly, a bunch of camps decided to eat the doe tags for a few years to rebuild the local herds. Kids and senior hunters were exempt from those agreements, but many seniors chose to eat their tags too. It worked in our local area. Baiting is illegal in Pa., so corn piles are like neon signs - citations are easy to come by if you bait. Thermal scopes for deer hunting .... IMO - no way. Where's the challenge? Coyotes w/thermals - go get 'em, boys.

As for your comment about not being a dick/ letting people live & let live, etc. - let me relate a situation that some of my family members found themselves in some years ago. I'll try to keep this short. 2 neighboring farms had gangs of guys that hunted deer on them every year. Those 2 farms drove out every woodlot in the area, repeatedly. They pounded those areas for several years, taking big numbers of bucks & does alike. Despite warnings of shooting themselves out of good hunting, they kept up the slaughter. After about 4 years of that kill-fest, they couldn't even find a track in the snow. Then came the whining & complaining. Bottom line - they ate their tags for a number of years in that area to let deer numbers build back up. As hunters, we can either kill everything we can, or police ourselves to keep healthy herds. I get a lot of satisfaction from letting some walk. --- JMO.

 

[Howboutthemdawgs]

I think a lot of folks fail to remember there is usually some management plan behind regulations. Iowa restrictive regulations - are they restrictive to save deer intentionally to increase the age structure - no, the restrictions are there to allow hunters an opportunity without killing too many - or too FEW deer.

Are Arkansas seasons of 8 weeks with modern gun, bait hunting, dog running, rut hunting, crossbow hunting set up to wipe out the deer - no - we kill about the same percentage of the herd every year as does Iowa. The regs are set to allow hunters an opportunity without killing too many or too few deer. If Iowa had AR regs, there wouldnt be a deer left. If AR had Iowa regs, you would run one over before reaching the end of your driveway.

I remember when I hunted in GA in the 1970’s. There were two or three doe days with a limit of one doe. Now you can shoot them for months with a limit of ten. Did GA DNR arbitrarily just relax restrictions for the heck of it, to make it easy to kill them with no reason? No, not hardly. I used to hunt almost every weekend for the 6 week season and see one or two deer all season. They made it easier to kill deer because there were more deer. But, GA has also stopped firearm hunting for deer on north GA pubic lands because of a decline in deer density.

Generally, there is some science behind hunting regulations and they arent just set willy nilly as some believe.

Totally agree that regulations aren’t made in a vacuum. But that doesn’t make all of them “right”.

But to the point about thermals. I’ve maintained this position since this thread started. It’s coming. A season will happen in the next couple years. This is how these things start. They get sold to the public. Marketed for “nuisance” animals; hogs and coyotes. They become mainstream and readily available to the point many many people on here have them. Then the government uses them for “problem” deer. Next some special scenario will open a 2 day hunt to the public (cwd management or some other bs). Then in no time it becomes worked into normal regulations.
And as far as hunters standing up against it…when has that happened? When muzzleloaders went from primitive to in line with scopes? When crossbows went from the elderly and handicap to everyone? When shotguns went to straight wall? When no bait became everyone bait? When no technology aid went to cell cams and drones? Im just trying to reason out why thermals is all the sudden a bridge too far?

 

[Bowsnbucks]

Totally agree that regulations aren’t made in a vacuum. But that doesn’t make all of them “right”.

But to the point about thermals. I’ve maintained this position since this thread started. It’s coming. A season will happen in the next couple years. This is how these things start. They get sold to the public. Marketed for “nuisance” animals; hogs and coyotes. They become mainstream and readily available to the point many many people on here have them. Then the government uses them for “problem” deer. Next some special scenario will open a 2 day hunt to the public (cwd management or some other bs). Then in no time it becomes worked into normal regulations.
And as far as hunters standing up against it…when has that happened? When muzzleloaders went from primitive to in line with scopes? When crossbows went from the elderly and handicap to everyone? When shotguns went to straight wall? When no bait became everyone bait? When no technology aid went to cell cams and drones? Im just trying to reason out why thermals is all the sudden a bridge too far?

This is a great testimonial on why the public should be schooled on the realities of game animals, their place in nature, causes for overpopulation of certain species, how diseases become rampant with overpopulation, etc. Educate the public about ways to legally, ethically harvest game animals that hunters will consume - instead of possibly being wasted, or buried in mass pits. Those that argue against hunting, but then support "sharp-shooters" who may use thermal scopes .... are deluding themselves as to what's actually happening. A shot from a hunter is the exact same thing as one from a hired "sharp-shooter." If hunters were allowed into suburban areas with only bows, where deer numbers are often higher, no gunfire would possibly be straying hundreds of yards (or more) to endanger residents. Yet those same suburban residents complain about deer damaging their flowers, shrubs, and trees. Bowhunters could be a smart solution with no lead flying long-distance. What am I missing here?

 

[Telemark]

Totally agree that regulations aren’t made in a vacuum. But that doesn’t make all of them “right”.

But to the point about thermals. I’ve maintained this position since this thread started. It’s coming. A season will happen in the next couple years. This is how these things start. They get sold to the public. Marketed for “nuisance” animals; hogs and coyotes. They become mainstream and readily available to the point many many people on here have them. Then the government uses them for “problem” deer. Next some special scenario will open a 2 day hunt to the public (cwd management or some other bs). Then in no time it becomes worked into normal regulations.
And as far as hunters standing up against it…when has that happened? When muzzleloaders went from primitive to in line with scopes? When crossbows went from the elderly and handicap to everyone? When shotguns went to straight wall? When no bait became everyone bait? When no technology aid went to cell cams and drones? Im just trying to reason out why thermals is all the sudden a bridge too far?

Not in Ohio. They will never permit night hunting for deer.

 

[Baker]

Absolutely. And I can already see the angle that will played against me…if I’m not hunting in loincloth with a slingshot then I’m a hypocrite. Fine. We all are to a degree.
I hunt alone on 650 acres. I only hunt with a bow out of hang on stands or occasionally a climber. I dont hunt over bait or flood my properties with 800 cameras so I can watch deer diddle themselves. Yes I hunt over shitty food plots I work on every year but I’ll never be convinced that’s the same as baiting. I also pass on a hell of a lot of deer with potential and some that are “trophies” in an effort to achieve that next level. To put it honest, I’m the neighbor 99% of the country would love to have. With that said I don’t think my neighbors have to do what I do. That’s ridiculous.
You had the opportunity to do something 99.9% of the hunting population doesn’t have the chance to do and basically said (I’m putting words to your actions so forgive if they aren’t spot on) I don’t agree with your actions, even if they are legal, and I’m taking matters into my own hands. Now I’ll save you my opinions of high fences, for the record I’m not 100% against them, I just don’t want to debate that here. But I can’t and won’t fence so I’m at the mercy of hoping regulations and ethics win out to preserve quality hunting. I define quality as hunting deer within a balanced age structure. Right now I can promise you my property and most properties I know of are not fishing in that pond. We have a huge skew towards too many does, immature bucks and a few high graded misfits. Is that our role as managers? I don’t think so but maybe I’m getting into the ethics too much? I have stated before in my 30 years of hunting I’ve seen regulations relaxed several times over in an effort to make it easier to take game (bucks). My hill to die on is no less relevant than the guy who wants “to let everyone hunt the way they want to hunt as long as it’s legal”. Remember a lot of what we are allowed to legally do today was illegal at some point. So 20 years ago if you said baiting is wrong and illegal as a Georgia resident, technically you were right. Today you say that and you are a dick who can’t let people live and let live. And then to throw on top of the relaxed regulations, the technology has improved exponentially over the last couple years.
Soooo all that said I’m trying in vain and maybe selfishly, to do what I think is right for the species and the experience, no different than the guy who is advocating for crossbows or legalization of bait.

THanks. Actually I am fishing for common ground first and to better understand the depths of ration for disagreements. We both heartily agree that quality includes hunting a deer herd with a balanced age structure. For me I take it further wanting the healthiest deer possible with a herd reflecting what a natural unmolested herd look like. Appears we both try to push things " to the next level " though that could require definition. I only hunt with a rifle but mostly a Canon XA60 video camera. I'm more fascinated and motivated with all things involved in growing quality whitetails than killing them anymore. I don't bow hunt anymore because I work too hard to grow deer to take the chance of wounding or losing a deer and without question that is more likely with archery than a rifle. That said some of the folks that hunt the ranch do bow hunt. I grew up bowhunting. We both hunt over food plots but my personality wouldn't tolerate " shitty plots". I'm too vain for that. My preferred way of hunting is spot and stalk both La.and Mexico. As I think about it I have only killed one trophy buck from a blind in decades that on my farm. Sneaking up close to a mature buck with a camera or rifle is my equivalent of bow hunting . 9 of my top 10 bucks were taken on foot plus a bunch more.

We are mostly in agreement on trail cameras. We do run them on the farm from late August till early October. That to identify bucks we want to try removing, and see what the top end is looking like. Don't use them for hunting. In Mexico on 25,000 acre I ran 5 cameras 5 days this October. Mostly a curiosity thing. I like the element of surprise there. I know people than take hundred thousand pics a year, have them cataloged in multiple files and spend hours over them. That is no fun to me but it is for them .

Bait. I don't find it an interesting debate. The whitetail range is huge, the circumstances widely varied and few things apply the same across the board. I have no problem with it and seriously doubt it will ever go away. So I don't think about it much .

You properly assess the reason I fenced my farm. To be clear, it is the best decision I ever made for creating a dream come true circumstance in my back yard. It has worked perfectly in my circumstance. I'll save elaboration for another time. Regarding your 650 acres, were I in your situation I'm not sure I would fence it either. Without knowing anything about your property thats getting on the small size by my ethics to fence a hunting property . Of course all choice has consequence and one has to accept the reality we create. No fence-live with the outcome.

Lastly seems we both want to do what is right for the specie and the experience. Because we have made different decisions to get there different strategies are required. The last thing I want is for the govt. to help me manage deer and I've put myself in a situation where that works in my circumstance. Seems a study in frustration to attempt changing others behavior or thinking to align to mine.

Appreciate the dialogue.

 

[Howboutthemdawgs]

THanks. Actually I am fishing for common ground first and to better understand the depths of ration for disagreements. We both heartily agree that quality includes hunting a deer herd with a balanced age structure. For me I take it further wanting the healthiest deer possible with a herd reflecting what a natural unmolested herd look like. Appears we both try to push things " to the next level " though that could require definition. I only hunt with a rifle but mostly a Canon XA60 video camera. I'm more fascinated and motivated with all things involved in growing quality whitetails than killing them anymore. I don't bow hunt anymore because I work too hard to grow deer to take the chance of wounding or losing a deer and without question that is more likely with archery than a rifle. That said some of the folks that hunt the ranch do bow hunt. I grew up bowhunting. We both hunt over food plots but my personality wouldn't tolerate " shitty plots". I'm too vain for that. My preferred way of hunting is spot and stalk both La.and Mexico. As I think about it I have only killed one trophy buck from a blind in decades that on my farm. Sneaking up close to a mature buck with a camera or rifle is my equivalent of bow hunting . 9 of my top 10 bucks were taken on foot plus a bunch more.

We are mostly in agreement on trail cameras. We do run them on the farm from late August till early October. That to identify bucks we want to try removing, and see what the top end is looking like. Don't use them for hunting. In Mexico on 25,000 acre I ran 5 cameras 5 days this October. Mostly a curiosity thing. I like the element of surprise there. I know people than take hundred thousand pics a year, have them cataloged in multiple files and spend hours over them. That is no fun to me but it is for them .

Bait. I don't find it an interesting debate. The whitetail range is huge, the circumstances widely varied and few things apply the same across the board. I have no problem with it and seriously doubt it will ever go away. So I don't think about it much .

You properly assess the reason I fenced my farm. To be clear, it is the best decision I ever made for creating a dream come true circumstance in my back yard. It has worked perfectly in my circumstance. I'll save elaboration for another time. Regarding your 650 acres, were I in your situation I'm not sure I would fence it either. Without knowing anything about your property thats getting on the small size by my ethics to fence a hunting property . Of course all choice has consequence and one has to accept the reality we create. No fence-live with the outcome.

Lastly seems we both want to do what is right for the specie and the experience. Because we have made different decisions to get there different strategies are required. The last thing I want is for the govt. to help me manage deer and I've put myself in a situation where that works in my circumstance. Seems a study in frustration to attempt changing others behavior or thinking to align to mine.

Appreciate the dialogue.

Agreed thanks for civility and the debate. I’m by no means saying I’m right in everything I say and my opinions are subject to change with more knowledge and experience. But where I stand right now I’m comfortable in my stance.

Also 5 cameras on 25000 acres! Hat tip to that!

 

[SwampCat]

Totally agree that regulations aren’t made in a vacuum. But that doesn’t make all of them “right”.

But to the point about thermals. I’ve maintained this position since this thread started. It’s coming. A season will happen in the next couple years. This is how these things start. They get sold to the public. Marketed for “nuisance” animals; hogs and coyotes. They become mainstream and readily available to the point many many people on here have them. Then the government uses them for “problem” deer. Next some special scenario will open a 2 day hunt to the public (cwd management or some other bs). Then in no time it becomes worked into normal regulations.
And as far as hunters standing up against it…when has that happened? When muzzleloaders went from primitive to in line with scopes? When crossbows went from the elderly and handicap to everyone? When shotguns went to straight wall? When no bait became everyone bait? When no technology aid went to cell cams and drones? Im just trying to reason out why thermals is all the sudden a bridge too far?

I have seen public stand up to regulations. In fact, the AR Sportsman’s Alliance - I think it was called - fought for our 3 pt APR, and got it passed. I have seen other occasions also. I see lot of drone regulations going against drone owners. I have seen game camera regulations become more stringent.

Before I provide my response, remember I have a degree in wildlife management and worked in natural resource management all my working life - and then after I retired - so my opinion is going to be biased but not necessarily right. And suffice it to say, I am not satisfied with all management decisions made by my own state’s g&f.

I do see some states allowing the use of thermal in areas where rapid reduction of deer density is desired and has not yet been effective with other methods - like what is happening in Baltimore city parks.

I am sure you have some experience behind a thermal scoped rifle. I have never seen any advancement in the hunting industry that has such a positive effect on weapon/hunter lethality. Crossbows, straightwall cartridges, and bait combined do not compare. I went for killing ten daylight hogs in a year to 153 night time hogs in six months on the same ground. And deer are night time dumber than hogs. When I say I could kill all five of my mature bucks in a week with a thermal scoped rifle, I am not kidding. Wildlife has no answer to thermal.

I think there are several reasons why there wont be a general thermal season in most states is due to the lethality - days or weeks would have to be shaved off the regular season to maintain the harvest within desired goals. I think the general population of hunters would raise so much hell it wont happen. Of the 20 or so regular thermal hunters I know - none of them would support it. Safety - the cousin of one of my best friends was killed while thermal hunting by some other thermal hunters. There is a wide variation in thermal scopes quality. I very nearly witnessed someone, with a very high dollar thermal scope - one of the best - almost shoot a transformer on an electric line. Hunting at night is NEVER going to be as safe as hunting in the daytime. The question of fair chase - night hunting deer in the U S has largely been illegal almost everywhere - and most hunters consider it the lowest of the low - not to mention many non hunters believe it to be very unethical. This is not europe where hunter numbers are few and obtaining a license can be very restrictive

That said, AR G&F will probably create a deer - and duck - night hunting season using thermal scopes this year

 

[Howboutthemdawgs]

I have seen public stand up to regulations. In fact, the AR Sportsman’s Alliance - I think it was called - fought for our 3 pt APR, and got it passed. I have seen other occasions also. I see lot of drone regulations going against drone owners. I have seen game camera regulations become more stringent.

Before I provide my response, remember I have a degree in wildlife management and worked in natural resource management all my working life - and then after I retired - so my opinion is going to be biased but not necessarily right. And suffice it to say, I am not satisfied with all management decisions made by my own state’s g&f.

I do see some states allowing the use of thermal in areas where rapid reduction of deer density is desired and has not yet been effective with other methods - like what is happening in Baltimore city parks.

I am sure you have some experience behind a thermal scoped rifle. I have never seen any advancement in the hunting industry that has such a positive effect on weapon/hunter lethality. Crossbows, straightwall cartridges, and bait combined do not compare. I went for killing ten daylight hogs in a year to 153 night time hogs in six months on the same ground. And deer are night time dumber than hogs. When I say I could kill all five of my mature bucks in a week with a thermal scoped rifle, I am not kidding. Wildlife has no answer to thermal.

I think there are several reasons why there wont be a general thermal season in most states is due to the lethality - days or weeks would have to be shaved off the regular season to maintain the harvest within desired goals. I think the general population of hunters would raise so much hell it wont happen. Of the 20 or so regular thermal hunters I know - none of them would support it. Safety - the cousin of one of my best friends was killed while thermal hunting by some other thermal hunters. There is a wide variation in thermal scopes quality. I very nearly witnessed someone, with a very high dollar thermal scope - one of the best - almost shoot a transformer on an electric line. Hunting at night is NEVER going to be as safe as hunting in the daytime. The question of fair chase - night hunting deer in the U S has largely been illegal almost everywhere - and most hunters consider it the lowest of the low - not to mention many non hunters believe it to be very unethical. This is not europe where hunter numbers are few and obtaining a license can be very restrictive

That said, AR G&F will probably create a deer - and duck - night hunting season using thermal scopes this year

you’re last line got me good!

Yeah I don’t claim to be Nostradamus, I just can see the pieces to the puzzle starting to fall into place. I pray I’m wrong, cause like you say, it’s lights out (no pun intended) when that happens. I’ll buy coon and squirrel dogs at that point.