Apples,apples and more apples

[westonwhitetail]

Westonwhitetail you are right on about the deer actually bedding in some of the apple tree thickets and not needing to move to feed. Overall it works in our favor though just the same. Each of the apple tree thickets are different but look back a few pics to post# 6. Pictured on that post is an apple tree thicket of close to 100 apple trees maybe more. Most of the trees on either side of the planted food plot are apples. The almost solid Apple area tree wise there covers roughly four acres. As you said the trees are old (mostly about 56 years old here) and each trees' crop varies each year from very heavy to just a few. However times 100 or more trees, it makes for a lot of apples. Food plots there are mostly about 15 yards wide at the most and if put on the same line they would be four to five hundred yards long. The deer move about very freely there during daylight hours. The planted food plot areas in this thicket area are weak, simply planted in clover but the deer feel very comfortable hanging out there. That entire thicket is not from an old orchard but rather consists of wild apple trees naturally born and grown in place there. Competing non-apple trees have been reduced there over the years one by one with a chainsaw. It does take maintenance to keep it going but not as much as one would think although a few are a bit rough just the same. This is another pic of the same apple tree thicket pictured in post 6. Most of those large ugly trees are great apple producers. This young deer is walking along one of the clover food plots that runs between thickets. So as you can see there is no clover or anything planted in the thickets just either alongside them or in cleared plots that go thru them. Every thicket and plot is different.

View attachment 27817

All of the apple tree thickets growing on the property were growing there on their own when I purchased the property. The property was purchased in parcels from 1989 to about 2000. The property initially had somewhere over 3,000 wild apple trees on it then (#guesstimated). Over the years we released just over 2,000 of those apple trees(actually recorded as released and counted). There is also one planted orchard area of about twenty trees and another 6 or so here and there that we also planted. Some years there are an abundance of wild apples thru Thanksgiving but regularly less than a dozen trees are still holding good from November 15th on. And yes all of this cover with food does make hunting interesting. However and BUT all of this extra cover is where most of the areas deer spend their daylight time and most of their night time as well according to neighbor reports and number of shots heard in the area. Thus the food and cover keeps them alive. If this property were as open as the surrounding properties there would be very few bucks here over 1 1/2. Most would be dead before they even reached 2 1/2 let alone 4 1/2. Even as young deer many of them seem to prefer hanging out in this thicker cover than the very open and browsed out surrounding neighboring properties.

I have not finished detailed analyzing 2019 trail cam pics so this statistic comes from 2018. Of the 42,000 and change trail cam pics from the fall of 2018, 71% of all deer pics were daytime pics. Our targeted bucks though had a 78% rate of daytime pics. So yes the unruly thick apple tree thickets give deer all the food and cover they want so they don't need to move but it is the main cause for getting them to 3 1/2, and even 4 1/2 and sometimes 5 1/2. And per the camera pictures most of their movement occurs during daylight hours. As in all things every minus comes with pluses and every plus comes with minuses. The important thing is the chosen habitat meets our goals.

Most of the new trees to be added will be added along side the current apple tree thicket areas. It is where the deer like to be anyways so providing them with more food there via late dropping apples during the later parts of the fall and thru the winter will have more pluses than minuses. WE are usually done hunting by mid November so the major thrust is to keep the deer alive and healthy to help get them thru the year to the next age bracket.

Hope you fully get what I'm going for and sorry for the long explanation.

No thank you for the explanation. I think these thcikets would be a good tool for someone looking to add food and cover in the some area. In the right situation like yours with lots of hunting pressure, the security maybe just as valuable as the apples. I wonder if someone was trying to recreate these, if planting specific shrubs and bushes between the apple trees would be a good idea to add to it. I'm just thinking out loud, always learning and planning for when I get a larger property some day and like to add ideas to the list, I think this is a good one.

 

[Jhoss]

Thank you for that suggestion Jhoss. I am interested in better understanding the specifics of your Using animal bedding in association with growing apple trees. I have no experience in using it for trees. Could you provide details of your methods? For example how fresh or composted is the bedding? Do you actually mix it in the soil before you plant or does it just go on top? And are you using exactly one whole per planting? And do you continue to add it annually or just the one time? Do you have sandy soil or clay or a good mix? Sorry for so many questions but knowing all of the details would help me understand it better.
Thanks.

Now that I understand the large scope of what you are doing I am not sure that sweetening planting spots is feasible/practical for you. It was/is for me going at 10 to 20 trees per year. I have around 20 chickens roosting on pine flake that comes in bales from tractor supply. One bale covers my 4 ft. X 8ft. coop floor about 4 inches deep. I "turn" this with a shovel every other day or so and in 3 weeks or so it needs to be cleaned out...usually 2 wheelbarrows full. I am lucky enough then to go dump a load on a planting spot or spread it around existing trees that are growing in less than ideal conditions. But for planned plantings, I would guess 3 or 4 planting spots per wheel barrow load get covered. I like to just leave a heap with zero prep. Some heaps have been there for a year - some just a couple of months. In the Spring a shovel sinks into that spot like butter and I use the heaped material to fill the hole - somewhat mixed with the soil there...about 6 inches of topsoil...a layer of clay...then sand as deep as I've ever dug (6 feet or so) and then (ideally) more manure bedding around the fresh plant. They grow like the dickens and are the greenest spots around.
For what it is worth - this weekend I spread around 5 existing trees - the ones needing it the most - more shaded than they should be. I figure a little chicken manuer cant hurt and I've never seen damage predicted by the common premise of "dont fertilize except in Springtime". I have enough trees to experiment - and now I dont even think about it - i just go wheel (or tractor) it out and dump and spread year round.

 

[Chainsaw]

That’s good info Sandbur. I’ll be extra aware about picking the better drained spots for planting where available. And if I feel I need to plant in a wetter spot, the ground will be raised to keep the roots above the ground water.
Had no idea why people put stakes in upside down- thanks. Also why is the seedling shaded on one side?
Your spruce trees make a nice escape area for the deer. Combined with the many apples producing there you have a nice area for the deer, kind of a deer garden.

Your seedlings appear to be late hangers. I presume the fruit parent was a late hanger. Did you do anything to tilt the odds that the pollen parent was a late hanger as well and what percentage of your seedling trees grew into late hangers?

 

[Chainsaw]

No thank you for the explanation. I think these thcikets would be a good tool for someone looking to add food and cover in the some area. In the right situation like yours with lots of hunting pressure, the security maybe just as valuable as the apples. I wonder if someone was trying to recreate these, if planting specific shrubs and bushes between the apple trees would be a good idea to add to it. I'm just thinking out loud, always learning and planning for when I get a larger property some day and like to add ideas to the list, I think this is a good one.

Sandbar had got me thinking about wild plums, the deer would enjoy all of the ground shoots they reportably grow.Westonwhitetail, I had also considered permanently fenced white cedar planted near the Apple tree thicket but not in among the apples. The cedar branches that would grow thru the fence would make good winter browse. The Apple thickets though will likely be planted as just apples mixed with some pears. Brush here grows rapidly on its own so we don’t really need to plant it. Low growing shrubs to feed deer would be a plus for sure but the apple trees will take up most of my extra time for about three years. I intend to plant apples close enough to each other that they more closely replicate the natural wild apple thickets. The outside edges usually grow the most apples so a configuration with increased edges would be ideal—maybe double rows with extra wide(like thirty yards wide versus the regular ten or twenty)planted in food plots beside the apple tree rows flanked by a second double row of apples and repeat. Then in future years ten to twenty yards width of the plots could be planted to shrubs/bushes as time permitted. Not sure on that, just trying to come up with the most effective configuration. Any thoughts on that?

 

[sandbur]

That’s good info Sandbur. I’ll be extra aware about picking the better drained spots for planting where available. And if I feel I need to plant in a wetter spot, the ground will be raised to keep the roots above the ground water.
Had no idea why people put stakes in upside down- thanks. Also why is the seedling shaded on one side?
Your spruce trees make a nice escape area for the deer. Combined with the many apples producing there you have a nice area for the deer, kind of a deer garden.

Your seedlings appear to be late hangers. I presume the fruit parent was a late hanger. Did you do anything to tilt the odds that the pollen parent was a late hanger as well and what percentage of your seedling trees grew into late hangers?

I shade seedlings and new bench grafts planted in final location because of occasional heat/ winds here on the edge of the prairie. They are open to the north to harden off in the fall.

Sometimes I collect seeds from late hangers, sometimes just collect seeds for another reason such as apple size.

I don’t know.. maybe 10-15 per cent late hangers.


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[Chainsaw]

Thank you J Hoss for your detailed explanation of using your chicken bedding to enhance the soil around your Apple trees. The foundation for your enhancing the soil does not seem impractical at all for any scale of planting. Will just need to change things up a bit. Being in a heavy dairy area it is possible to obtain good amounts of cow manure And bedding versus chicken bedding. I have on hand many, many trailer loads of well composted horse bedding/manure and recall one measurement of around 900 yards of wood chips in various stages of decomposing. Thus soil amending can be accomplished for lot’s of trees. For most of the nitrogen part commercial fertilizer can be added in once the trees are well settled in and have grown for a yet to be understood time (by me so far). After all, the entire property is really a deer garden in progress and the apple trees are among our favorite plants so definitely they are worthy of time spent to properly feed them Just as we feed turnips and most other plantings.

One paper from the University of Mississippi extension service* stated that new apple tree growth should be maintained at 15 to 18 inches per year. And then it explains general fertilizer needs if it is less. I currently have no clue as to whether that measurement of new growth would apply to northern properties or not nor if scion length is equivalent to new annual growth that the article refers to. The scions (new growth) taken yesterday from a tree here ranged in size mostly from 2 to 4.5 inches. The tree produced lots of apples but maybe the scion growth length is telling me it needs fertilizer. Can some of you from northern properties tell me how long your new growth scions are on your properties? And what if any growth measurements to your individual apple trees are being used to determine if fertilizer is needed?

I’m happy with the crowds marching into our single late holding Apple tree orchard but if feeding the trees can make for even more growth and thus deer food value, then it is sounds like a much needed practice here.



*Paper referred to is titled "Fruit and nut review- Apples and Pears" was on the website extension.msstate.edu

 

[sandbur]

Thank you J Hoss for your detailed explanation of using your chicken bedding to enhance the soil around your Apple trees. The foundation for your enhancing the soil does not seem impractical at all for any scale of planting. Will just need to change things up a bit. Being in a heavy dairy area it is possible to obtain good amounts of cow manure And bedding versus chicken bedding. I have on hand many, many trailer loads of well composted horse bedding/manure and recall one measurement of around 900 yards of wood chips in various stages of decomposing. Thus soil amending can be accomplished for lot’s of trees. For most of the nitrogen part commercial fertilizer can be added in once the trees are well settled in and have grown for a yet to be understood time (by me so far). After all, the entire property is really a deer garden in progress and the apple trees are among our favorite plants so definitely they are worthy of time spent to properly feed them Just as we feed turnips and most other plantings.

One paper from the University of Mississippi extension service* stated that new apple tree growth should be maintained at 15 to 18 inches per year. And then it explains general fertilizer needs if it is less. I currently have no clue as to whether that measurement of new growth would apply to northern properties or not nor if scion length is equivalent to new annual growth that the article refers to. The scions (new growth) taken yesterday from a tree here ranged in size mostly from 2 to 4.5 inches. The tree produced lots of apples but maybe the scion growth length is telling me it needs fertilizer. Can some of you from northern properties tell me how long your new growth scions are on your properties? And what if any growth measurements to your individual apple trees are being used to determine if fertilizer is needed?

I’m happy with the crowds marching into our single late holding Apple tree orchard but if feeding the trees can make for even more growth and thus deer food value, then it is sounds like a much needed practice here.

View attachment 27880

*Paper referred to is titled "Fruit and nut review- Apples and Pears" was on the website extension.msstate.edu

I get lots of growth on water sprouts. Other scion is pretty short, especially on heavy fruiting years.
Many of my trees seems to be somewhat biennial. One Kerr crab had heavy crops for two years, then rested 2019. Other Kerr was loaded.


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[Chainsaw]

Sandbur, 10 to 15% late holding trees grown from seedlings taken randomly is excellent news. Apparently it is a trait that though not common can likely be made common on our properties for those of us shooting for such. One of my the strategies here will be to plant several late hangers in close proximity to each other yet far from other Apple trees so most of the natural pollination on the late hangers could be mostly from other late hangers.and thus many of the seeds could carry the late hanging genes. I plan to also try to pollinate my wild Turning Point tree this spring with blooms from the few late hanging planted trees on the property. Have not had success with that yet but who knows. This whole journey is so much fun and exciting. It reminds me of the first food plot we planted on the property about thirty years ago.

Chickenlittle, the advantages of that north/ south planting direction you photographed according to many studies would likely on this property yield around twenty percent more apples than other orientations would. Proximity to already established wild apple thickets, food plots, heavy cover and drainages, and soil conditions will continue to trump planting orientation but the north/south row orientation will be used where it fits. Thus overall we won’t see a twenty percent yield increase but we will get some at least.

Mortenson, have one more observation on the number of appe tree thickets. I realize that what happens here may not be even close to what might happen on your property with more Apple/food plot plantings. For what it is worth, somewhere in the 80,000 range of total trail cam pictures have been taken on this property in other than large plots during, Nov. and Dec over the last two years. That is eighty thousand combined total over the last two years not each year. Multiple mature bucks in the same picture were extremely rare validating as we already know that they don’t get along well at that time. And when they were together in other than very large plots, one was dominating over the other. Throughout the entire rutting period each mature buck was photographed in two or less different apple thickets and a couple were photographed in up to four different thickets further validating that the bucks did not want to intrude on other mature bucks favorite haunts at least during the day. That info in total to me further verifies that up to a point during the rut that more mature Bucks can be squeezed onto a property by having more everything a buck and doe could want areas for that time period. Six areas probably won’t hold six times what one would hold but it could hold three times more. This is of course just conjecture but it is based on some observations and experience.

 

[Chainsaw]

While there are still a handful of trees still holding apples here, the conditions arrived yesterday where the wild apple trees themselves became the main food source for the deer here. A couple of inches of snow fell yesterday followed by lots of freezing rain and then another bout of 8 inches of snow. The storm has pretty much closed off feeding on most plants near ground level until the next thaw. It is that freezing rain that has made a layer of thick ice under the snow that is the culprit as eight inches of snow is usually just a regularly occurring nuisance here. These exact conditions however make the gangling, old overgrown and almost unrecognizable apple trees truly pay their space. Everyone of the apple trees themselves here will now be a critical lifeline to the deer to help get them thru the next two or three weeks with their bodies still functioning well.

The picture below taken this morning shows some of those old apple trees along part of our driveway. To all of us and more importantly to the deer it is quite remarkable how the weight of the snow and ice have brought lots of browse down to deer level that have been way out of reach since this time last year. That this should happen, that the bank of apple tree browse has been brought down to deer level at the same time that most other browse has become temporarily buried in ice is just so, so timely. The deer will now eat the newly reachable apple branch tips down to double the size of a pencil. Likely and hopefully a thaw period will come by then and melt that layer of ice so the deer can find and access enough to eat to hold onto some of the precious fat preserves they may have left. In between now and the next thaw lake effect snow will likely fall regularly further reducing access to other ground level plants while also further weighing down and bending more apple tree branches down to deer height.


The now low hanging branches in the few trees in this picture of course do not provide that much browse but a thousand or two or three of such trees and we're talking a lot of browse. Every so many winters here in a random and unpredictable order, a thaw does not occur in time and the deer do not find enough to eat after they have eaten the apple tree branches down and many of them do die here those years; mostly it was the younger deer in the herd that didn't make it then. And the locations that those small deer picked as their last stand was usually in an apple tree thicket here under the low hanging branches of an apple less apple tree. In other locales it could be a young hemlock stand or a white cedar swamp but here on this place when winter delivers its hardest punch, it is the apple trees that the deer evidently can find their last morsels of natural browse. The question remains as to if the late holding trees that will be planted here over the next three or more years will someday consistently be holding enough apples to add to this tremendous browse bank and better help get the deer thru those rare but devastating winters ahead or not. And also would the extra apples each of the planted trees produce from being trained to grow orchard like off set the browse bank those same trees would create if they were encouraged to grow gangly as the wild ones naturally do?

There is some good reason to choose the gangling shapes of the wild trees versus the "perfect" shape of orchard trees as being a good choice here. Likely a mixture of the two mentioned apple tree growth shapes though will provide the deer winter food more CONSISTENTLY than one way or the other would. Which way have some of you who have property exposed to severe winters chosen to shape your apple trees or plan on shaping them?

 

[sandbur]

While there are still a handful of trees still holding apples here, the conditions arrived yesterday where the wild apple trees themselves became the main food source for the deer here. A couple of inches of snow fell yesterday followed by lots of freezing rain and then another bout of 8 inches of snow. The storm has pretty much closed off feeding on most plants near ground level until the next thaw. It is that freezing rain that has made a layer of thick ice under the snow that is the culprit as eight inches of snow is usually just a regularly occurring nuisance here. These exact conditions however make the gangling, old overgrown and almost unrecognizable apple trees truly pay their space. Everyone of the apple trees themselves here will now be a critical lifeline to the deer to help get them thru the next two or three weeks with their bodies still functioning well.

The picture below taken this morning shows some of those old apple trees along part of our driveway. To all of us and more importantly to the deer it is quite remarkable how the weight of the snow and ice have brought lots of browse down to deer level that have been way out of reach since this time last year. That this should happen, that the bank of apple tree browse has been brought down to deer level at the same time that most other browse has become temporarily buried in ice is just so, so timely. The deer will now eat the newly reachable apple branch tips down to double the size of a pencil. Likely and hopefully a thaw period will come by then and melt that layer of ice so the deer can find and access enough to eat to hold onto some of the precious fat preserves they may have left. In between now and the next thaw lake effect snow will likely fall regularly further reducing access to other ground level plants while also further weighing down and bending more apple tree branches down to deer height.

View attachment 27933
The now low hanging branches in the few trees in this picture of course do not provide that much browse but a thousand or two or three of such trees and we're talking a lot of browse. Every so many winters here in a random and unpredictable order, a thaw does not occur in time and the deer do not find enough to eat after they have eaten the apple tree branches down and many of them do die here those years; mostly it was the younger deer in the herd that didn't make it then. And the locations that those small deer picked as their last stand was usually in an apple tree thicket here under the low hanging branches of an apple less apple tree. In other locales it could be a young hemlock stand or a white cedar swamp but here on this place when winter delivers its hardest punch, it is the apple trees that the deer evidently can find their last morsels of natural browse. The question remains as to if the late holding trees that will be planted here over the next three or more years will someday consistently be holding enough apples to add to this tremendous browse bank and better help get the deer thru those rare but devastating winters ahead or not. And also would the extra apples each of the planted trees produce from being trained to grow orchard like off set the browse bank those same trees would create if they were encouraged to grow gangly as the wild ones naturally do?

There is some good reason to choose the gangling shapes of the wild trees versus the "perfect" shape of orchard trees as being a good choice here. Likely a mixture of the two mentioned apple tree growth shapes though will provide the deer winter food more CONSISTENTLY than one way or the other would. Which way have some of you who have property exposed to severe winters chosen to shape your apple trees or plan on shaping them?

Many of my apples for deer have received minimal pruning. Just a bit as I get time. Many of the wild crabs are in a brushy area and a bush type of growth does fine.

The bush growth probably reduces winter sunscauld in exposed areas.


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[Chainsaw]

Good point about the sun scald Sandbur. I have read about using latex paint mixed with water applied to the trunk. Have you used that technique? The bushy growth may also offer some apples low enough that even without the weight of snow and ice on them the older deer can pick them off the tree.

 

[chummer]

Good point about the sun scald Sandbur. I have read about using latex paint mixed with water applied to the trunk. Have you used that technique? The bushy growth may also offer some apples low enough that even without the weight of snow and ice on them the older deer can pick them off the tree.

I mix some sevin and joint compound in there as well. I have stopped using screens because I believe this also deters the rodents. It need to be applied every 2-3 years.

 

[Chainsaw]

I mix some sevin and joint compound in there as well. I have stopped using screens because I believe this also deters the rodents. It need to be applied every 2-3 years.

No need for screens sounds fantastic. That must be a very specific mixing formula. Since it is working for you it certainly will be tested out here as well,,,,cautiously at first of course.

 

[chummer]

No need for screens sounds fantastic. That must be a very specific mixing formula. Since it is working for you it certainly will be tested out here as well,,,,cautiously at first of course.

Nothing specific about it, I don’t even measure anything. I don’t have many if any vols

 

[Chainsaw]

Nothing specific about it, I don’t even measure anything. I don’t have many if any vols

I do not know if we have voles for sure either, have never seen one but everyone says there a lot so I go with that. Either way though we’ll test out your formula on a couple of trees here and see if it works here or not.

 

[chummer]

I do not know if we have voles either, have never seen one. Either way though we’ll test out your formula on a couple of trees here and see if it works here or not.

The real benefit is the apple borers. I have lost a couple very nice trees to these pricks and the trees had screens on them.

 

[sandbur]

Back side of one seedling exclusion cage.

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[sandbur]

No crab apples left outside of this exclusion cage. I should really move the cage inside of this tree as it is big enough to go it alone.

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[Chainsaw]

Sandbar, that is a nice looking apple stand seeing it up close. It with must be fairly dense when the trees have their leaves on them. And definitely it is time to expose that one tree to the deer. Is it possible that the entire area could be opened up now? Will you redo the fencing around the lower trunks when/ if you remove the fence? it would be hard for a buck to rub them but even one would be too much.

 

[sandbur]

Sandbar, that is a nice looking apple stand seeing it up close. It with must be fairly dense when the trees have their leaves on them. And definitely it is time to expose that one tree to the deer. Is it possible that the entire area could be opened up now? Will you redo the fencing around the lower trunks when/ if you remove the fence? it would be hard for a buck to rub them but even one would be too much.

I won’t open it up yet as some of the other trees are small. There are too works in there and some failed topworks that I need to decide on what I will do with them.


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