Anyone believe this?

[Tree Spud]

Just curious why should the taxpayer provide their hard earned money so someone in an industry that didn’t work out gets to further their education? This is the type of tax payer waste that should get cut out. And I’m not just picking on this, there’s billions that should not be my or yours or Brian’s burden. We could reduce our person tax liability by huge percentages if we cut out the bailouts and handouts.
Easier said than done I suppose though.

You are absolutely correct. People should be responsible for paying the cost of their own career development and training. That is the only way they will have skin in the game and take it seriously.

Problem is, with many of these industries (steel, auto, paper, etc.) where Unions have inserted themselves, workers are conditioned to believe that their future will be taken care of by someone else. I know a lot of people in my hometown that had to learn that lesson the hard way.

They got the golden job at one of these factories right out of high school, usually because of their dad or buddy (good ole' boy system). Then the the job/factory disappeared, and were captives of the union mentality, they had no clue what to do. Some had developed transferable skills such as welding, pipe fitting, electrician, etc., but many were earning way beyond their skill set.

 

[Skeeter]

The coal industry has had years (100?) to adapt and hasn't. I don't want the government picking winners and losers anymore than you do, which I believe is Dawgs' point but the industry itself still has to progress at some point.

A simple Google search for uses of coal will show multiple applications, not just to make electricity. The only failure to adapt that you could possibly be talking about is failure to adapt to increasing regulations. Subsidies are much easier to "adapt" to.

 

[Jerry-B-WI]

Just curious why should the taxpayer provide their hard earned money so someone in an industry that didn’t work out gets to further their education? This is the type of tax payer waste that should get cut out. And I’m not just picking on this, there’s billions that should not be my or yours or Brian’s burden. We could reduce our person tax liability by huge percentages if we cut out the bailouts and handouts.
Easier said than done I suppose though.

The problem is, who gets to define what a handout is? What you and I consider a handout might be someone else's lifeline.

Why should my tax dollars get funneled through FEMA to keep building houses that get washed away every year in a flood?

 

[Jerry-B-WI]

You are absolutely correct. People should be responsible for paying the cost of their own career development and training. That is the only way they will have skin in the game and take it seriously.

Problem is, with many of these industries (steel, auto, paper, etc.) where Unions have inserted themselves, workers are conditioned to believe that their future will be taken care of by someone else. I know a lot of people in my hometown that had to learn that lesson the hard way.

They got the golden job at one of these factories right out of high school, usually because of their dad or buddy (good ole' boy system). Then the the job/factory disappeared, and were captives of the union mentality, they had no clue what to do. Some had developed transferable skills such as welding, pipe fitting, electrician, etc., but many were earning way beyond their skill set.

I believe the money for the retraining was allocated from one of the free trade agreements.

 

[Howboutthemdawgs]

The problem is, who gets to define what a handout is? What you and I consider a handout might be someone else's lifeline.

Why should my tax dollars get funneled through FEMA to keep building houses that get washed away every year in a flood?

I think that’s a great point. FEMA’s existence always confused me

 

[Tree Spud]

I believe the money for the retraining was allocated from one of the free trade agreements.

If there is money available, then it should be used. I am just not a fan of the Gov't always subsidizing this stuff. Tax $$ come out of taxpayers pockets and we need to respect that also. I have had to restart my career several times and there were no handouts for retraining. I had to pay for my education learn new skills without any assistance.

Biden absolving student debt really boils my ass! Well off, educated people, with excellent well paying job prospects being given a bailout as opposed to someone who has really suffered a hardship and could use that assistance.

 

[Brian662]

A simple Google search for uses of coal will show multiple applications, not just to make electricity. The only failure to adapt that you could possibly be talking about is failure to adapt to increasing regulations. Subsidies are much easier to "adapt" to.

Ok... that's just not the case, certainly not with any significance.

 

[Barndog56]

This why dairy farmers have to keep increasing the size of their herd. If the price of milk doesn't go up you have to produce more of it to stay profitable. It's a never ending cycle.

And when a small farm goes under, all their stock is sold off to other farmers, production remains the same and prices stay low.

And now technological advances in insemination mean more cows are being born, which will increase production and keep prices low.

In the past several years farms have went from two milkings a day to three to increase production, keeping prices low.

Evidently there is no solution.

 

[Skeeter]

Ok... that's just not the case, certainly not with any significance.

View attachment 72558

What do you think a similar chart of corn would look like if not subsidized?
I just don't believe it to be intellectually honest to compare one commodity and industry that has had mostly more and more regulations applied to another commodity and industries that have been subsidized.

 

[Brian662]

What do you think a similar chart of corn would look like if not subsidized?
I just don't believe it to be intellectually honest to compare one commodity and industry that has had mostly more and more regulations applied to another commodity and industries that have been subsidized.

Now you've moved the goal posts again, but regardless, I wasn't the one who compared the two industries.

Coal came up earlier in this thread, I saw a relevant graph and posted it for continued discourse.

 

[OakSeeds]

It actually started prior to Regan. I can remember the huge impact of the oil cartel's and energy crisis(s) of the 70's. Watched lots of offshoring of industry prior to Regan. We lost lots of primary metals production and many other products were being made off shore by then. The company I worked for was importing steel from National Steel in Japan to make roofing in the 70's. Aluminum pot lines on the west coast were being closed down and biz was moving overseas and to Canada, due to lower power costs, and cheaper labor. Less restrictions too.

New York State was full of manufacturing plants that closed up shop. Appliances, microwave ovens, foundries, heavy industry, all closed and relocated. Many old plants were shuttered as I recall from my travels out that way in the 80's and 90's.

The oil crisis of the 70s caused a huge awakening in the USA. But already lots of things were being imported from asian sources. Technology advances increased the rate of off-shoreing.

I think in the 70's and 80's we thought there was no way we could produce more.....and business looked at foreign sources as a means to grow as well as new markets were developing. International investing became all the rage. I was making some pretty good returns on my international fund investments. Hey...if you can't beat 'em...join em.

I lost a couple of good jobs in manufacturing sales due to plant closings, reorganization, and off-shoring. Had to really bob and weave to find new work.

Foggy, I believe you are trying to link two important economic events that are only weakly related, at best. First, the oil embargo was not an economic decision; said simply, it was a political decision made by Arab countries in retaliation for U.S. support for Israel in a conflict (primarily against Egypt and Syria although other middle east countries were involved) in a war (sometimes called 6-day or Ramadan War, Yom Kipper War, or Arab-Israeli War). Almost serendipitously, the petroleum world was changed forever with the price of oil quadrupling in a year which resulted in long lines at U.S. gas stations, stagflation, 1981 CD interest rates of 15.9% and ultimately, a recession. It turned out to be a powerful economic weapon (probably would have occurred much earlier if they had any idea of the potential effects). It has been reported that GE was a pioneer in offshoring as early as the late 60s; however, most literature I,ve seen suggests the major push/ widespread use of offshoring actually began in the late 70s and early 80s with companies going to Mexico using the Maquiladora system. A maquiladora is a manufacturing plant or factory licensed to operate under Mexico’s Secretariat of Commerce and Industrial Development.
Maquiladoras were started in the 1960s to encourage foreign investments and ease unemployment problems in Mexico. Employment in maquiladoras increased from roughly 200,000 in the 1980s to over 1 million jobs in the late 90s. These early offshore production moves, and later ones involving plants in the far east (e.g., China) were centered almost exclusively on securing cheaper labor (you noted that in your post) with little concern about broadening markets. Over 40-50 years later, it is apparent both the embargo and off shore production facilities had both short term and long-run consequences.

 

[Jerry-B-WI]

And when a small farm goes under, all their stock is sold off to other farmers, production remains the same and prices stay low.

And now technological advances in insemination mean more cows are being born, which will increase production and keep prices low.

In the past several years farms have went from two milkings a day to three to increase production, keeping prices low.

Evidently there is no solution.

The only solution is to keep getting bigger.
One local CAFO milks about 1500 head. That's at one facility they have another facility at a different location just for raising replacement calves. When you start milking 3 times a day the cows burn out pretty fast. Couple maybe three years and they're off to market, can't imagine what they're ground into.
When farmers milked 50 to 70 head family members provided the labor. When an operation milks 1500 head no one has a family big enough. So now you hire a herdsman and help to milk. Some operations have a vet on staff. Guess where most of that hired help comes from. Some of them don't have the proper papers either.
When your operation milks 1500 head the owner doesn't milk cows anymore, now you manage your employees. I would guess it's the same at the mega farms in California and Florida.

 

[Foggy47]

The only solution is to keep getting bigger.
One local CAFO milks about 1500 head. That's at one facility they have another facility at a different location just for raising replacement calves. When you start milking 3 times a day the cows burn out pretty fast. Couple maybe three years and they're off to market, can't imagine what they're ground into.
When farmers milked 50 to 70 head family members provided the labor. When an operation milks 1500 head no one has a family big enough. So now you hire a herdsman and help to milk. Some operations have a vet on staff. Guess where most of that hired help comes from. Some of them don't have the proper papers either.
When your operation milks 1500 head the owner doesn't milk cows anymore, now you manage your employees. I would guess it's the same at the mega farms in California and Florida.

The largest dairy producers have from 10,000 to 100,000 cows.....and more. Crazy operations. I read that some produce over 200 calves / day. Google has lots of info to offer. Mind boggling.

I hunted coyotes in Nevada back in the 90's. Hunted near a huge dairy operation.....don't remember the name. I hooked up with some predator hunters at the SHOT show....and got invited to this ordeal. We found the best hunting was at their dead cow / calf dump site.....where the coyotes would come day and night.....just about like rats at a dump. That place stunk to high-heaven and it felt stupid hunting there to me.......but the coyotes just kept on coming in. Not sure I care to do that hunt again......enough to gag a maggot.

 

[TreeDaddy]

The largest dairy producers have from 10,000 to 100,000 cows.....and more. Crazy operations. I read that some produce over 200 calves / day. Google has lots of info to offer. Mind boggling.

I hunted coyotes in Nevada back in the 90's. Hunted near a huge dairy operation.....don't remember the name. I hooked up with some predator hunters at the SHOT show....and got invited to this ordeal. We found the best hunting was at their dead cow / calf dump site.....where the coyotes would come day and night.....just about like rats at a dump. That place stunk to high-heaven and it felt stupid hunting there to me.......but the coyotes just kept on coming in. Not sure I care to do that hunt again......enough to gag a maggot.

Imagine the phosphorus tsunami in the watershed from that place

Eutrophication,baby!!!!!!!

bill

 

[Howboutthemdawgs]

The largest dairy producers have from 10,000 to 100,000 cows.....and more. Crazy operations. I read that some produce over 200 calves / day. Google has lots of info to offer. Mind boggling.

I hunted coyotes in Nevada back in the 90's. Hunted near a huge dairy operation.....don't remember the name. I hooked up with some predator hunters at the SHOT show....and got invited to this ordeal. We found the best hunting was at their dead cow / calf dump site.....where the coyotes would come day and night.....just about like rats at a dump. That place stunk to high-heaven and it felt stupid hunting there to me.......but the coyotes just kept on coming in. Not sure I care to do that hunt again......enough to gag a maggot.

And once again to highlight one of my earlier points, agricultural industry is in the untouchable caste of environmental regulations. Builders have a pebble wash into a neighbors 1/4 acre pond and we get hit with fines that we have to fight for a year and still end up paying into their slush fund

 

[Bowsnbucks]

Depends what it was. There's lots of bulk grid food makes it's way into farmers markets that is sold as "home grown" when it's really GMO garbage from south america or asia. The stuff I got wasn't even pitched as organic, just garlic grown in MN. Real food grown in dirt just tastes different, and that stuff does. The cloves are enormous, it's easy to use because of it, and the flavor is off the charts compared to grid garlic.

Agree. We buy local, home-grown garlic here too. The flavor is much better - more pungent. The local bulbs aren't dried out & tasteless like the imported crap. Local is hard, firm, and oily. Grocery store garlic just doesn't cut it, IMO.

 

[Bowsnbucks]

IMO, nuclear power is the future.

That, and newer technology for geothermal using old oil & gas wells. Drill deeper on old sites to tap geo heat. I've read Bill Gates is one of several people financing a smaller, newer-design nuke for local, site-specific use. I believe it's being built in Wyoming. Old, shut-down coal-fired power plants are planned, likely locations for smaller nukes because the infrastructure is largely in place grid-wise. TMI here in Pa. is slated to be re-started to power many data centers / AI needs. A very thorough, NRC-regulated procedure will be in place to facilitate the re-start. Any upgrades / replacements to equipment will be overseen by an army of engineers, QC people, and the NRC. Background checks, drug & alcohol screening are in place at all nuclear sites.

For the folks who worry about safety of nuclear because of TMI - after that incident, all U.S. nukes were retro-fitted with redundant systems designed to shut down the reaction in case one control system failed. This happened because of NRC regulations put in place for the safety of all Americans. Those retro-fits were nicknamed the "TMI upgrades." Today's nukes have electrical, hydraulic, pneumatic, and manual means to fully insert the control rods to stop the nuclear reaction. Before TMI - most nukes had ONE means to shut down the reaction. I worked on 2 nukes as they were built, and am familiar with the safety aspects. I live near one, and sleep soundly - because of those NRC safety regs.

 

[Bowsnbucks]

Saw this today and figured I would post it here because of the conversation about coal earlier this week. Coal usage worldwide is at an all time high clearly led by China and India increases.

View attachment 72552

Yes- China & India are the world's biggest coal burners. But China is changing course - because they have to. Their air is so polluted, even their leaders know they can't stay that dirty course. It won't happen overnight ............... but why is a move to cleaner energy sources a bad thing?????????? China is pushing hard for greener technology to be the world leader in "green tech." Do we want China to dominate the world market for anything "green tech" - and not the U.S.?? Do we want the best tech to have "Made in the U.S.A." on it - or "Made in China" ??? (I read from financial / investment / market sources - not political ones. Watch where big money is going - and what it's going into. On the power generation front, it's not coal - it's "green tech", and newer-design, smaller nukes.)

The use of coal is there because you don't make a big change to power generation overnight. Coal has been in place for over a century, and it was cheap. No one will argue it's a clean energy source. It's filthy. Since we only have one planet to live on, countries are taking steps to switch to cleaner energy sources - or we poison ourselves out of existence. The earth is a sealed bubble. Our atmosphere doesn't have an "exhaust vent" to let the bad stuff out. Is common sense concerning our only environment "out of fashion"??

 

[Howboutthemdawgs]

Huh? China is not slowing down coal…they are fast tracking it.

China responsible for 95% of new coal power construction in 2023, report says - Carbon Brief

China accounted for 95% of the world’s new coal power construction activity in 2023, according to the Global Energy Monitor.

www.carbonbrief.org

 

[Skeeter]

Now you've moved the goal posts again, but regardless, I wasn't the one who compared the two industries.

Coal came up earlier in this thread, I saw a relevant graph and posted it for continued discourse.

Fair enough.
So what do you attribute the steep drop in coal usage for electricity production? Natural market forces or more government regulations concerning coal and subsidies for "green" electricity production?