Anyone believe this?

The best most honest explanation of fossil fuel usage I've ever heard or seen.

 
A few years ago (5 or so) the power company in ND was shutting down several of their coal burners which seemed bizarre to me. They were competitively advantage because they were extracting coal right across the road and saving on transportation costs. The CEO of the company said the shut downs were simply because coal power generation can't compete with newer natural gas units.

Natural gas is clean, efficient, and most of all requires little maintenance which means very little labor overhead. Hard for the coal dinosaurs to compete with that.
 
All for finding the most efficient source of anything. But why should the government not support the coal industry? Just think of all the coal folks that have lost their livelihoods and heritage….im being facetious but thats the sales pitch for supporting farmers. We need energy and we need food. Coal Aid 2025 featuring Willie Nelson and Bruce Springsteen and Dave Mathews will be epic.
 
Howboutthemdawgs said:
All for finding the most efficient source of anything. But why should the government not support the coal industry? Just think of all the coal folks that have lost their livelihoods and heritage….im being facetious but thats the sales pitch for supporting farmers. We need energy and we need food. Coal Aid 2025 featuring Willie Nelson and Bruce Springsteen and Dave Mathews will be epic.
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Trump campaigned on saving the coal industry in 2016, how did that work out?
Is there a sustainable replacement for farmers like there is coal? I think corn and soy have successfully woven themselves into many alternative industries to remain competitive. I'm not saying that's good or bad, just what I've noticed. What alternative industry does coal have other than power generation?
There isn't a single industry that lasts forever in it's previous or current form...adapt and change or go extinct. These types of rapid transformations are going to increase with the dawning of AI and tech, IMO.

My dad was a wood pattern maker, the stuff he could make with his hands was unbelievable. Mercury engines, Chevy motors, you name it- they formed it.
He was the main guy for his company when they expanded to Texas for a government contract in the 80's. Moved our family down there for 2.5 years when I was a kid so he could run this new shop. They were making molds/parts for the stealth bomber, I came to find out many years later (super cool). Anyways, fast forward a decade to the late 90s and his industry was all but DEAD from automation and CNC machines. He had the opportunity to learn the new tech/computers but preferred to stay working with his "hands", it didn't last. Nowadays when I tell people he was a wood pattern maker they've never even heard of that profession, like it never happened.
 
Brian662 said:
Trump campaigned on saving the coal industry in 2016, how did that work out?
Is there a sustainable replacement for farmers like there is coal? I think corn and soy have successfully woven themselves into many alternative industries to remain competitive. I'm not saying that's good or bad, just what I've noticed. What alternative industry does coal have other than power generation?
There isn't a single industry that lasts forever in it's previous or current form...adapt and change or go extinct. These types of rapid transformations are going to increase with the dawning of AI and tech, IMO.

My dad was a wood pattern maker, the stuff he could make with his hands was unbelievable. Mercury engines, Chevy motors, you name it- they formed it.
He was the main guy for his company when they expanded to Texas for a government contract in the 80's. Moved our family down there for 2.5 years when I was a kid so he could run this new shop. They were making molds/parts for the stealth bomber, I came to find out many years later (super cool). Anyways, fast forward a decade to the late 90s and his industry was all but DEAD from automation and CNC machines. He had the opportunity to learn the new tech/computers but preferred to stay working with his "hands", it didn't last. Nowadays when I tell people he was a wood pattern maker they've never even heard of that profession, like it never happened.
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There are rumors in my neighborhood of a coal power plant being put back online… to support a couple huge new data centers.
 
Brian662 said:
Trump campaigned on saving the coal industry in 2016, how did that work out?
Is there a sustainable replacement for farmers like there is coal? I think corn and soy have successfully woven themselves into many alternative industries to remain competitive. I'm not saying that's good or bad, just what I've noticed. What alternative industry does coal have other than power generation?
There isn't a single industry that lasts forever in it's previous or current form...adapt and change or go extinct. These types of rapid transformations are going to increase with the dawning of AI and tech, IMO.

My dad was a wood pattern maker, the stuff he could make with his hands was unbelievable. Mercury engines, Chevy motors, you name it- they formed it.
He was the main guy for his company when they expanded to Texas for a government contract in the 80's. Moved our family down there for 2.5 years when I was a kid so he could run this new shop. They were making molds/parts for the stealth bomber, I came to find out many years later (super cool). Anyways, fast forward a decade to the late 90s and his industry was all but DEAD from automation and CNC machines. He had the opportunity to learn the new tech/computers but preferred to stay working with his "hands", it didn't last. Nowadays when I tell people he was a wood pattern maker they've never even heard of that profession, like it never happened.
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If we would subsidize coal the way we do corn and soy beans, while at the same time allowing the derivatives to be used in scientifically proven negative ways, as we do with corn and soy beans, it would be just as competitive. Remove the subsidies and regulations and see which one proves itself a viable commodity. You can't hamstring one and start the other half way down the track and call it an even race.
 
Skeeter said:
If we would subsidize coal the way we do corn and soy beans, while at the same time allowing the derivatives to be used in scientifically proven negative ways, as we do with corn and soy beans, it would be just as competitive. Remove the subsidies and regulations and see which one proves itself a viable commodity. You can't hamstring one and start the other half way down the track and call it an even race.
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That’s one of my main points, you did a better job saying it than me.
 
TreeDaddy said:
Nahhhhhhhh

But if any of you tree tube homos start asking for subsidies to buy tubes...............

bill
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You should see the pile I've already collected in the barn at camp! Just waiting for our hopeful TSI cut this year to get them into the woods.
 
Skeeter said:
If we would subsidize coal the way we do corn and soy beans, while at the same time allowing the derivatives to be used in scientifically proven negative ways, as we do with corn and soy beans, it would be just as competitive. Remove the subsidies and regulations and see which one proves itself a viable commodity. You can't hamstring one and start the other half way down the track and call it an even race.
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The coal industry has had years (100?) to adapt and hasn't. I don't want the government picking winners and losers anymore than you do, which I believe is Dawgs' point but the industry itself still has to progress at some point.
 
Brian662 said:
The coal industry has had years (100?) to adapt and hasn't. I don't want the government picking winners and losers anymore than you do, which I believe is Dawgs' point but the industry itself still has to progress at some point.
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To play devils advocate could the same be said about farming. I mean if there’s efficiencies in scale which would ultimately benefit the consumer, shouldn’t the market be allowed to weed out the small guy in favor of the mega farm?

For the record I don’t want that one bit but the government is 100% guilty of picking winners and losers as you stated. It’s the hypocrisy in romanticizing the family farm over the family coal miners. I wish both could be successful and the mega farm could eat crap. I get what you are saying In advancements but I’m not sure it’s apples to oranges on energy. It seems like we need all hands on deck given our demands. Other countries seem to have no problem using it to fuel themselves quite cheaply.
 
Howboutthemdawgs said:
To play devils advocate could the same be said about farming. I mean if there’s efficiencies in scale which would ultimately benefit the consumer, shouldn’t the market be allowed to weed out the small guy in favor of the mega farm?

For the record I don’t want that one bit but the government is 100% guilty of picking winners and losers as you stated. It’s the hypocrisy in romanticizing the family farm over the family coal miners. I wish both could be successful and the mega farm could eat crap. I get what you are saying In advancements but I’m not sure it’s apples to oranges on energy. It seems like we need all hands on deck given our demands. Other countries seem to have no problem using it to fuel themselves quite cheaply.
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It's a pretty nuanced conversation but I'm not sure I've ever known (I'm admittedly naive on the topic) a mom and pop coal mine? I thought "big coal" dominated the landscape?

If bigger companies are capable of higher efficiency and a result of that is higher profit, they should absolutely flourish. Hopefully you'd keep the govt meddling to a minimum but as we know, big corps have big lobbyists so it all circles the drain at some point inevitably.

Agreed on energy and I'm not anti-coal but the problem they face is a massive uphill fight. Cheaper and cleaner is the direction things are going and it's tough for coal to compete on that stage. The "cleaner" portion of that is the biggest hang up. However power generation doesn't work like other industries necessarily, cheapest supplier to the grid often wins the pie. To my earlier point about ND coal, if they can't compete with the stuff coming out of the ground right next door with a LNG peaker plant (or dozens) 4 states away, they are in big trouble.
 
Brian662 said:
It's a pretty nuanced conversation but I'm not sure I've ever known (I'm admittedly naive on the topic) a mom and pop coal mine? I thought "big coal" dominated the landscape?

If bigger companies are capable of higher efficiency and a result of that is higher profit, they should absolutely flourish. Hopefully you'd keep the govt meddling to a minimum but as we know, big corps have big lobbyists so it all circles the drain at some point inevitably.

Agreed on energy and I'm not anti-coal but the problem they face is a massive uphill fight. Cheaper and cleaner is the direction things are going and it's tough for coal to compete on that stage. The "cleaner" portion of that is the biggest hang up. However power generation doesn't work like other industries necessarily, cheapest supplier to the grid often wins the pie. To my earlier point about ND coal, if they can't compete with the stuff coming out of the ground right next door with a LNG peaker plant (or dozens) 4 states away, they are in big trouble.
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Yeah sorry didn’t mean mom and pop coal plant, that would be an anomaly. I was referring to the worker. I have some buddies in ky that lost their way of life due to a big coal plant shutting down. Pretty sure there was no government bailout for them, no concerts with save the world liberal bands, no bumper stickers, etc. They were forced to adapt. Sucks but that’s life.
 
Howboutthemdawgs said:
Sucks but that’s life.
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100%

Both sides of my family growing up had small dairy farms in southern WI, how could they possibly stay in business when the cost of milk has been $3.00-$4.00 my whole life. It sucks, but that's life.

Have skills, be marketable, adapt, survive.

Back on topic, the farmers who rent my land for cash cropping also run a trucking company 12 months a year. They are grinding every day to make a living because they aren't getting rich dragging a plow.
 
Brian662 said:
100%

Both sides of my family growing up had small dairy farms in southern WI, how could they possibly stay in business when the cost of milk has been $3.00-$4.00 my whole life. It sucks, but that's life.

Have skills, be marketable, adapt, survive.

Back on topic, the farmers who rent my land for cash cropping also run a trucking company 12 months a year. They are grinding every day to make a living because they aren't getting rich dragging a plow.
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I honestly can’t figure farmers and farming out. And it’s more of a curiosity thing than anything else. But I think there’s many layers to the success of agriculture. I have 2 buddies in particular that are doing very very well farming. I don’t know figures but I know they lack for nothing and are actively looking for more ground. My farmer seems to be doing just fine. He was poor mouthing some stuff after harvesting my fields. I threw him a lifeline and said I’ve been contemplating making this habitat, it’s poor ground based on the erosion and lack of top soil, don’t feel any obligation to keep renting from me if it doesn’t make sense. He couldn’t have said it made sense faster! So obviously he’s profitable on my less than ideal ground.
 
Howboutthemdawgs said:
Yeah sorry didn’t mean mom and pop coal plant, that would be an anomaly. I was referring to the worker. I have some buddies in ky that lost their way of life due to a big coal plant shutting down. Pretty sure there was no government bailout for them, no concerts with save the world liberal bands, no bumper stickers, etc. They were forced to adapt. Sucks but that’s life.
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There should have been government money available for retraining. College, tech. school etc. I worked at a pulp mill earlier in life, it was a sulfite mill which had environmental problems and was old. The paper industry changed and the pulp mill shut down eliminating about 100 jobs. I know several people who retired while still going to school for retraining.
 
Brian662 said:
100%

Both sides of my family growing up had small dairy farms in southern WI, how could they possibly stay in business when the cost of milk has been $3.00-$4.00 my whole life. It sucks, but that's life.
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This why dairy farmers have to keep increasing the size of their herd. If the price of milk doesn't go up you have to produce more of it to stay profitable. It's a never ending cycle.
 
Jerry-B-WI said:
There should have been government money available for retraining. College, tech. school etc. I worked at a pulp mill earlier in life, it was a sulfite mill which had environmental problems and was old. The paper industry changed and the pulp mill shut down eliminating about 100 jobs. I know several people who retired while still going to school for retraining.
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Just curious why should the taxpayer provide their hard earned money so someone in an industry that didn’t work out gets to further their education? This is the type of tax payer waste that should get cut out. And I’m not just picking on this, there’s billions that should not be my or yours or Brian’s burden. We could reduce our person tax liability by huge percentages if we cut out the bailouts and handouts.
Easier said than done I suppose though.
 
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