Any merit to laying off big does?

[DDC]

I have been reading more and more about laying off the older does and shooting year and a half does instead. The theory is it keeps the group together which in turn draws in the bucks later. Opinions?

 

[Peplin Creek]

you'll end up with dried up does this way. That can't be good for bucks. Not to mention some of the smartest does in the county...

 

[H20fwler]

With high deer density being a non-issue in my area I lay off the good breeder does that have fawns with them, especially twins or triplets. If I want a "meat" deer I look for a dry doe with no fawns with her.

 

[4wanderingeyes]

Last year I had to thin out the old does, they are too smart in my area. Either that or I am not smart enough. Although if does have fawns with them, they get a pass. This year I have 2 does with a target on them, they are old does, with no fawns. I dont have big acerage, so others may thin them out for me too. This year I only have 1 target buck, and he dissapears for a week each time, then hangs out for a couple days.

 

[j-bird]

Mature does tend to support multiple fawns and tend to be better mothers....in getting fawns to an age of being self sufficient. So if you are trying to build a herd - passing on the mature does would be a good tool to achieve that. Obviously they can become very educated/smart as well and thus can become a handful regarding hunting. They will also reach of point where their reproductive capacity will diminish as well.....so there will come a time when they need to go as well. Doe management is just as important as buck management depending on your goals. As for hunting and mature does is concerned....I can't really speak to that. I will say that the first and last does or so that comes into estrus can make for some interesting hunting because the availability of willing suitors is high while the number of receptive does is low and the breeding parties that result can be awesome to watch.

 

[yoderjac]

I have been reading more and more about laying off the older does and shooting year and a half does instead. The theory is it keeps the group together which in turn draws in the bucks later. Opinions?

Seems to me this is trying "polish a turd" as my old boss would have put it. Let's assume the theory is true for a minute. It is at least a second if not third order factor at best. Improve habitat to increase carrying capacity. Keep herd numbers in balance with the habitat by shooting does as necessary. Ensure your habitat manipulation is sustainable for the long haul. Protect young bucks to ensure sufficient age. Keep human pressure to a minimum during hunting season.

We've been working at it for many years and don't have all of this fully in place yet. Once you do, then perhaps it is time to play with second and third order impact theories.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[JFK52]

I will take the biggest does at the earliest opportunity I have to harvest them. I don't see any harm in it and I consider a mature doe just as much "trophy" as any buck with decent antlers. I have a good deer density in my area. I also feel that other mature does from marginal habitats will take the place of the harvested does on my land. Mother Nature does not like a vacuum.
One reason I hunt is to put venison in the freezer. Mature does taste good and have a decent amount of meat on them.

 

[Boll Weevil]

We target the oldest, biggest, lop-eared does for the simple reason that they produce/rear the most fawns and managing the number of mouths and sex ratio is a real challenge in our area. Not at all to say I won't shoot younger does but if a group walks out and one is clearly the matriarch nanny, she's going in the freezer.

 

[Tree Spud]

I have been reading more and more about laying off the older does and shooting year and a half does instead. The theory is it keeps the group together which in turn draws in the bucks later. Opinions?

How do you positively identify a "big doe"? Year to year so many variations .... How would you identify a 1.5 year old doe?

Farmers in our area get Ag Tags and can demolish deer in the spring ... no idea what they are shooting. Then these same guys complain the herd is out of balance, there are no bucks, there are no does...

 

[Ben.MN/WI]

I'm with j-bird. If you want to increase the deer numbers, leave the old does alone. If you have too many deer, fill a tag. Coyotes take a lot of fawns here, so I wouldn't kill a doe solely because she doesn't have a fawn during deer season.

 

[Booner21]

I let the old ones go as I am trying to increase numbers back to what they were a couple years ago pre ehd. They have the best fawning grounds and best chance of getting the fawns to adult hood. Have 1 running around with triplets that is definitely off limits.

The length of the head is the easiest way for me to pick them out.

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[chucker66]

I have what I think is another issue. I have on camera 4 adult does with only 1 fawn. It is a buck fawn so that's good but I don't think any of the fawnless does are real old but they don't seem to be yearlings either. I have some yotes and bears on camera (no wolves yet) and just thinking about what might be happening here. Do I have 3 "dry does"? Also the doe with the buck fawn does appear to be a very mature doe. I am thinking that getting rid of some coyotes might help. Thoughts? I also wonder when someone says they have a "dry doe" is it possible she lost her fawns for whatever reason, be it predators, cars etc.?

 

[4wanderingeyes]

I had an issue with too many smart older does last year. We took out 3 of them. It made hunting much more tolerable. These does knew our stands and would hiss at every stand when they walked past them. Even when you aren't in them. They had to go. I still have 2 more old does in the area, these 2 does I would age at over 6 years old, and they haven't had any fawns with them at all this year.

Now my area has a lot of does, so taking out a couple won't effect the herd negatively.

If you have low deer numbers, let them walk, taking out does won't increase deer numbers.


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[yoderjac]

I have what I think is another issue. I have on camera 4 adult does with only 1 fawn. It is a buck fawn so that's good but I don't think any of the fawnless does are real old but they don't seem to be yearlings either. I have some yotes and bears on camera (no wolves yet) and just thinking about what might be happening here. Do I have 3 "dry does"? Also the doe with the buck fawn does appear to be a very mature doe. I am thinking that getting rid of some coyotes might help. Thoughts? I also wonder when someone says they have a "dry doe" is it possible she lost her fawns for whatever reason, be it predators, cars etc.?

Not sure if my situation informs yours or not. We had high populations here and could not shoot enough does to keep up with recruitment and immigration at first. We had coyotes in the general area but very few picture on our farm. We would generally have young male black bears more through our place in mid summer as they were being pushed out to relocate. We didn't seem to have anything resident.

Things changed in 2014 for us. It was a mast crop failure and our food plots were the only game in town. We doubled our average harvest of female deer that year. Because the is no real ag other than some pasture for about 3 miles around our place, deer are generally drawn in each summer when native foods dry up. We sort of had a perfect storm. With the mast crop failure that year and an abundance of food in our plots, as deer were drawn, so were coyotes. That winter was the first time we got regular pictures of yotes and they stayed and now use our farm regularly. We also had an outbreak of EHD in the general area. It did not hit our farm, but it did reduce populations in nearby parts of the county and adjoining some counties.

We measure survival (Jan through April) and recruitment (September). We had a dramatic drop in both and recovery has been very slow. Many of our habitat improvement have not only benefitted deer, but also small game that form the main food supply for yotes. I think the yotes had a significant impact slowing our bounce back. We may have a new normal. It is not all bad. While it is fun to be able to harvest many does, the coyotes will help keep the herd in balance making for an overall healthier but lower population as things stabilize.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[g squared 23]

I have heard both sides to this argument, and neither is proven by any actual data. If your deer numbers are too low, reduce your doe harvest. If it's at a reasonable level, then shoot whatever doe walks by and what makes sense to you. Edge of the property to reduce your impact? Sounds good. Center of the property to allow small bucks a place to call their permanent home instead of being displaced by a big doe? Why not.

Enjoy your hunting.


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[cornfedkiller]

Another thing I've heard in favor of passing the older does and taking the younger ones if you want to increase (or sustain) your numbers is that older does are already established on your property, and young ones aren't yet. Those older does know the good bedding areas, etc and you know they will be sticking around...due to dispersal, those young does might move off your property as soon as they are weened off their mothers.

That was mentioned along with the other reasons I've heard in this thread - mainly because "middle aged" does are better mothers.

I have no experience one way or another, but it was Steve Bartylla on some show that was the first person I heard talk about passing older does.

 

[John-W-WI]

We've been trying to take out the "Nanny" does for several years. Jake (now 11) has been the shooter. He hasn't been too successful.

But we have a very identifiable doe (missing her tail) that is 2 years old with twins this year. She was around last year. We are going to give her a pass hoping she can become our confidence decoy. She is very used to us. Maybe we can convince her we are no threat and she won't hiss every time she sees us?

The other long nosed girls are doomed if Jake can get one of them.

-John

 

[S.T.Fanatic]

I have what I consider low deer numbers on the property I hunt. I havent filled a tag in years because I want the kids to be able to harvest something. (blew my chance last year on the only buck i've drawn back on in 15 years of bow hunting) Once one of the kids gets one in the freezer I don't even consider shooting a doe. This has been going on for years and our numbers never seem to change no mater how many/few deer get harvested.

 

[WTNUT]

Big old mature does are number one on our hit list every year and have been for about 17 years now. Take out the smartest ones. I don't think one can do a lot with regard to their genetic pool, but I will say that we do have bucks move in from some distance and I like the "idea" of them breeding with younger does to mix things up as opposed to some doe pushing out 1/2 of the same genetic package for 10 years. We also have a pretty good big doe contest each year and the old ones improve your chances of winning.


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[4wanderingeyes]

I have a lot of big does. They are well fed on my land.

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