Alfalfa - using Cleth to control grasses then overseed and cultipack - Need input

[huthut]

Looking to thicken up a neglected 12 year old - 2 acre of alfalfa field. The area was cut 2 weeks ago at 6-8 inches. Grasses are now actively growing. I have cleth and crop oil to apply so first question how much of each would you recommend? 10-12 ounces cleth, 1 quart crop oil per acre is the current plan. I will be applying 12 gallons water /acre. Could go higher water volume per acre is needed.

ultimately I want to thicken up the alfalfa in the field with some clover or more alfalfa. Field is pretty sandy but not as bad as some of my fields. Can I spread some clover seed first, spray and cultipack? Leaning towards just using a medium red clover seed - thoughts? I may even through some brassicas and winter rye in for this year.

Any help guidance would be very helpful -

 

[wiscwhip]

Alfalfa is autotoxic, so putting more alfalfa in that plot would most likely be a waste of money. On the other hand, red clover and alfalfa mix very well together. It almost would have been better to spread the clover before you mowed it, but since you are going to roll it you should be fine. Spread, spray, pack, and at this point in the summer, pray for rain to germinate and then rain to keep the clover seedlings alive until they can get a root down, the "mulch" will help hold some moisture.

 

[huthut]

If it is 12 years old, it is 9 years past plowing it up! You won't be able to thicken it up with another legume. Just my take on it!

MoBuckChaser,

Trying to get away from the plowing and disking - following closely what you and dipper are doing outside the box. If I do not work up the field -- would you recommend gly on the whole field and overseeding and cultipacking? I have quite a bit of winter rye, oats, brassicas, corn, beans but relatively minimal amount of alfalfa, clovers, chickory etc.. Open to almost anything for this two acres --

 

[huthut]

Alfalfa is autotoxic, so putting more alfalfa in that plot would most likely be a waste of money. On the other hand, red clover and alfalfa mix very well together. It almost would have been better to spread the clover before you mowed it, but since you are going to roll it you should be fine. Spread, spray, pack, and at this point in the summer, pray for rain to germinate and then rain to keep the clover seedlings alive until they can get a root down, the "mulch" will help hold some moisture.

wiscwhip,

Luckily rain on not been too much of an issue so far this year in central wisconsin so I feel pretty good about my chances, but am prepared for the faucet to be shut off soon!! I was not sure if cleth could be sprayed right over seeds or if there was a residual effect for a period of time after spraying.

I can cultipack a few times to make sure the seed falls through the mulch. The mulch is not that heavy also. The deer still like to feed on the alfalfa so was try to keep it if possible, because depending on the year it can be difficult to get anything established on sandy soil.

 

[j-bird]

Huthut - consider spraying & tilling strips in it. Alfalfa is legume and as such you will have some nice N stored in the soil. These different strips you can then plant whatever you want or specifically someting that loves N -like cereal grains, brassicas or grasses (corn or sorghum). The only alfalfa I have is mixed with red and white clovers and chicory as well, but it was all planted at the same time. You can apply cleth to seed without hurting it as well.

 

[huthut]

Its an old alfalfa field if you don't kill it and plow it under, everything you do has failure wrote all over it. I have been doing this since 1977, and have found no good way to over seed an existing alfalfa field and get anything to work in my area. Red clover will introduce itself if you kill the grass out of it. But Red Clover is a weed, if you are happy with that then try throwing some in with it. Would hate to see you waste your time and money with piss poor results. Let us know if you find something that works so others can try it. Thanks!

Thanks for your input - if that is the case I can definitely get it sprayed and plowed up this summer and put a fall planting in. What clover mix would you recommend? Should i run corn or soybeans in this field for a year first?

 

[huthut]

Thanks for sharing your thoughts --I will make a decision shortly then get to work!!

 

[dipper]

I would have no fears beating on that alfalfa with ghlyphosate. The roots on that alfalfa are an 1.5"-2" thick, and 10' down. Alfalfa will damn near live forever in the central WI sands. Even with farmers taking 4 crops a year off fields, pending threat of frost damage, it will last 4-5 years in out area.
I've got a few spots I am managing for broadleaf weeds. They were originally alfalfa and grass took it over. There is still alfalfa in there after repeated beat downs by ghlyphosate and OUST. The thing is, now isn't the best time to be spraying cool season grass, because it is semi resistent this time of year. However, we've had good moisture, so it is staying green. Make sure it sprouts back whatever you end up spraying.
I would have no fear boradcasting clover in there, just don't expect beautiful clover by fall. That's why I'd over load plenty of rye in there, to take up the terminated grass. IMO-right now is a good time to be broadcasting seed into grassy areas. It is gonna tak a litle longer to germinate, but I've yet to have a failed broadcasted rye plot.
The disclaimer-I'm a reckless food plotter.

 

[Deer Kar]

I would spray it till it and plant brassica this year to burn some of that free N.You don't want to go Alfalfa on Alfalfa !!

 

[huthut]

I would have no fears beating on that alfalfa with ghlyphosate. The roots on that alfalfa are an 1.5"-2" thick, and 10' down. Alfalfa will damn near live forever in the central WI sands. Even with farmers taking 4 crops a year off fields, pending threat of frost damage, it will last 4-5 years in out area.
I've got a few spots I am managing for broadleaf weeds. They were originally alfalfa and grass took it over. There is still alfalfa in there after repeated beat downs by ghlyphosate and OUST. The thing is, now isn't the best time to be spraying cool season grass, because it is semi resistent this time of year. However, we've had good moisture, so it is staying green. Make sure it sprouts back whatever you end up spraying.
I would have no fear boradcasting clover in there, just don't expect beautiful clover by fall. That's why I'd over load plenty of rye in there, to take up the terminated grass. IMO-right now is a good time to be broadcasting seed into grassy areas. It is gonna tak a litle longer to germinate, but I've yet to have a failed broadcasted rye plot.
The disclaimer-I'm a reckless food plotter.

Dipper

If I was going to hit the field with Gly -- how hot should I make the mix? 1 qt/acre? 2 qt/acre. I do have cleth and crop oil but sounds like you would lean towards a gly application is that correct? Rye 2 bushels/acre? How much red clover would you overseed per acre? Would you be any issues with some brassicas overseeded for the fall?

This is an area I do not need to be perfect so I may very well be a bit reckless -- I have quite a few acres or foodplots doing very well with all the moisture this year.

 

[dipper]

There is nothing wrong with the clethodim, if you have it, use it. Go with the rate you want to go with, but I think 2 quarts/ acre is some overkill. If your worried about germination, you could go 2 bushels/acre, but planting this early there shouldn't be an issue(pending adequate moisture). Depends on how much red clover you want. You could overseed at 15 pounds/ acre for a real thick stand. A few pounds/ acre if you want room to add other plants. No, brassicas are a must as well, keep that rate low, to get those big bulbs with alot of greens.

 

[wiscwhip]

AMS mixed with your cleth and crop oil will help with mature stubborn grasses. Also be aware not to overuse the crop oil, follow the recommended amounts on the label, as it will have a tendency to burn tender new growth on alfalfa plants if applied too heavily. If you have a fair/good amount of alfalfa left in that plot, I would used about 6-8lbs per acre of red clover, 1-2lbs/acre of turnips, and 2lbs per acre of some type of forage/daikon radish. This should produce a pretty good fall deer salad.

 

[huthut]

Thanks for the input -- going out this weekend to spread seed, spray and culitpack. Going to use cleth at 10 ounces per acre, 1 qt/acre crop oil. The seed will be 1 bushel/acre winter rye, 5lbs acre red clover, 3lbs acre radishes, 2 lbs/acre ptt. I am open to suggestions

 

[dipper]

I forgot to say this yesterday, but a drag will benefit your cause more than a cultipacker. The biggest issue is getting the seed to dirt, not packing it down.
One of the things I am noticing is this broadcasting approach, is you are going to have a delayed germination on a certain percentage of seed. The delay might be a matter of weeks, up to a matter of a months. I've had summer flattened rye not germinate until the next spring. Summer broadcasted clover and brassicas not germinate to the next summer.
I hate to keep repeating this, but these seeds are going to find a way to germinate. It isn't all going to happen the exact time we want, but they are going to germinate and live. I personally don't see that as a problem, some might.
Peas are also really good germinators. I blew some spilled AWPs into some indian grass clumps I have growing along the house, and they are 3' long right now. I always have peas growing in my lawn too.

 

[huthut]

Sprayed cleth, crop oil and sticker on the alfalfa field this evening. I will drag the field tomorrow to expose the dirt (maybe even take my wheel disk to the least aggressive position and lightly scarify) and hopefully seed. cultipack soon thereafter.

The seeding plan is 1 bushel/acre winter rye, 5lbs acre red clover, 3lbs acre radishes, 2 lbs/acre ptt. I will throw some oats in if I can find some tomorrow maybe 15 lbs/acre. Something will germinate !! Still open for comments/ suggestions