You learn something new everyday .... if you are willing!

[Turkey Creek]

I am a firm believer in always trying to learn something new everyday. Here is the latest thing I have learned and thought I would share. Some of you may already know the answer. What causes this?



Glyphosate damage from LAST year. I live in a sea of Ag crops (mostly soybeans and corn) and herbicide drift occurs too often here. I knew I had not sprayed my trees with any herbicide directly or indirectly. The symptoms look alot like Zinc deficiency. While my soil is slightly deficient in Zinc, my foliar applications of Zinc didnt prevent this, things werent adding up. Finally today after talking to a crop consultant and further research today I finally feel that I have an answer. Know how Glyphosate actually works? It ties up certain vital micro nutrients in a plant that are necessary for life sustaining chemical processes in the plant. On young trees such as the one pictured, Glyphosate drift enters the leaves later in the growing season and remains in the roots over the winter. The next year the new growth is subjected to the build up of Glyphosate in the roots as the tree begins to grow long after the initial exposure. Older, larger trees often only show this type of injury on lower branches. The really sucky thing is you really cant pinpoint the exact offender who did this to your trees a year later!

From the publication "Good Fruit Grower"

Besides being perhaps the most effective and nonselective plant killer ever devised—and thus worthy of respect when it is applied near any desirable plant—glyphosate has been linked to many other indirect or subtle effects. In recently published scientific reports, use of glyphosate has been linked to:

• An increase in plant diseases, including cankers in fruit, caused by reduced resistance to diseases and pests
• An increase in bark cracking and brittleness in tree trunks
• A tying-up of nutritionally important minerals, resulting in less thrifty plants and a decrease in the nutritional quality of the crops produced by these plants. This property, chelation, is the mode by which glyphosate kills plants.
• The destruction of important soil flora, plants that are important in nitrogen fixation, mineralization, and other soil fertility processes

Moreover, glyphosate is cumulative in plant tissue. Repeated applications add to previous doses, so even minor drift can add up to problems in future years. Glyphosate injury is often attributed to other causes such as drought, high temperatures, water fluctuations, or cool soils.

 

[Neahawg]

Merle gets it every year.

 

[Apple Junkie]

This is news to me. I spray Round-up around the base of my trees to keep the weeds down. No more! Thanks for the info TC.

 

[Bowsnbucks]

Yes - thanks TC !! I've used gly around the outer perimeter of our cages for weed killing. I'll stop that now and just mow to the cages.

I saw something similar on a couple apple trees this spring. I wondered what caused it. Now I know.

 

[Turkey Creek]

Dont let me scare you away from using Glyphosate, I use it on my caged trees and will continue to do so. Just wanted to bring it to peoples attention that drift is something to not take lightly and what it can do even in relatively small doses on young trees.

 

[SURGICAL GRADE]

In regard to physical herbicide drift (i.e., small particles of fly solution "drifting" to leaves/buds, etc. of the tree) since gly has no soil residual, there should be very little concern with spraying around the bases of trees provided practical and reasonable caution is given while spraying. Unless I am missing something?

 

[Turkey Creek]

In regard to physical herbicide drift (i.e., small particles of fly solution "drifting" to leaves/buds, etc. of the tree) since gly has no soil residual, there should be very little concern with spraying around the bases of trees provided practical and reasonable caution is given while spraying. Unless I am missing something?

Correct as far as I know regarding soil contact. You need to be aware of root suckers and avoid direct contact to the bark on very young trees. I have sprayed around the cages and even inside the cages of my older trees with no adverse affects.

I am very careful while doing so. However, sometimes folks forget how far drift can travel ( or care in my case neighbors or the companies that are hired to do their spraying). Twice this year I have had "neighbors" crops sprayed on days where it was clearly not advisable 90 degrees or hotter and 20 mph + winds while the rig was going across the field at high speeds. I documented those instances, but fortunately or unfortunately there was no significant damage immediately following those applications. That is the problem shown in the above photo, once the damage shows itself it is going to be next to impossible to pinpoint the cause and to get compensation a year later.

 

[sandbur]

TC- When I was growing crab apples from seeds, I would get that growth pattern in a few young seedlings. These seedlings were less than 2 months old and in pots so it was not herbicide drift. I do not know what caused it, but those seedlings never amounted to much. I just eliminated them.

Without any evidence to support, I was thinking of genetics in that seedling or maybe a virus???
I called it a rosette type of growth pattern.

 

[Bowsnbucks]

When I've sprayed gly around the cages and even inside the cages, I keep the nozzle of my tank sprayer right down at the weed level, usually brushing the weeds themselves. And if I spray inside the cages ( easy to do with concrete mesh cages ), I point the spray nozzle outward, so no spray gets on the tree trunks.

I did see that growth pattern from post #1 on a couple trees and I wonder if it was me spraying gly or drift from spraying cleth on a plot right next to some of those trees ??

 

[Turkey Creek]

TC- When I was growing crab apples from seeds, I would get that growth pattern in a few young seedlings. These seedlings were less than 2 months old and in pots so it was not herbicide drift. I do not know what caused it, but those seedlings never amounted to much. I just eliminated them.

Without any evidence to support, I was thinking of genetics in that seedling or maybe a virus???
I called it a rosette type of growth pattern.

I wonder how the soil in your pots was for Zinc levels? Insufficient Zinc causes similar rosetting of new leaves. The difference I was told is that when those leaves develop brown / dead edges and eventually the entire leaf dies it is from herbicide intake the previous year. This symptom I have is an entire row of mixed varieties of apples all on B9 on the outside row of one of my nurseries. I personally think that this equation equals the true answer

B9 (low vigor growing trees) + soil that is insufficient in Zinc + herbicide drift = trees that look like my posted picture!

 

[SURGICAL GRADE]

Correct as far as I know regarding soil contact. You need to be aware of root suckers and avoid direct contact to the bark on very young trees. I have sprayed around the cages and even inside the cages of my older trees with no adverse affects.

I am very careful while doing so. However, sometimes folks forget how far drift can travel ( or care in my case neighbors or the companies that are hired to do their spraying). Twice this year I have had "neighbors" crops sprayed on days where it was clearly not advisable 90 degrees or hotter and 20 mph + winds while the rig was going across the field at high speeds. I documented those instances, but fortunately or unfortunately there was no significant damage immediately following those applications. That is the problem shown in the above photo, once the damage shows itself it is going to be next to impossible to pinpoint the cause and to get compensation a year later.

Makes perfect sense. Great thread!

 

[Maya]

I wonder how the soil in your pots was for Zinc levels? Insufficient Zinc causes similar rosetting of new leaves. The difference I was told is that when those leaves develop brown / dead edges and eventually the entire leaf dies it is from herbicide intake the previous year. This symptom I have is an entire row of mixed varieties of apples all on B9 on the outside row of one of my nurseries. I personally think that this equation equals the true answer

B9 (low vigor growing trees) + soil that is insufficient in Zinc + herbicide drift = trees that look like my posted picture!

I'm trying to figure out some HC's that are having troubles. All are Geneva roots, below the graft union are splitting and rotting, the leaves are yellowing, but look different then the shriveled pics you posted. They are just yellowing and staying small. I've got some HC's in the same rows that are on B9, and they are fine. I would bet it is from gly, but not sure. They were also over-cropped 3rd leaf trees last year. Looks like I'm going to loose a few. I don't recall any brown edges though.

 

[TreeDaddy]

When I've sprayed gly around the cages and even inside the cages, I keep the nozzle of my tank sprayer right down at the weed level, usually brushing the weeds themselves. And if I spray inside the cages ( easy to do with concrete mesh cages ), I point the spray nozzle outward, so no spray gets on the tree trunks.

I did see that growth pattern from post #1 on a couple trees and I wonder if it was me spraying gly or drift from spraying cleth on a plot right next to some of those trees ??

Will clethodim harm fruit trees?

I was going to spray with boomless sprayer on ATV through orchard .

Will reconsider if clethodim is harmful

bill

 

[Bowsnbucks]

TreeDaddy - I don't know about cleth harming fruit trees. I know a couple of our members sprayed cleth on a food plot next to a row of our orchard and I see the same effects as TC showed in his post pic. It's only on a couple trees, and I'm guessing it could be from the cleth drifting in the wind ?? Others have said gly shouldn't have that effect due to lack of residual soil properties. I do spray gly around the cages - but very carefully with the nozzle right down at weed level. Maybe other guys with more cleth knowledge can answer your question.

 

[Turkey Creek]

Will clethodim harm fruit trees?

I was going to spray with boomless sprayer on ATV through orchard .

Will reconsider if clethodim is harmful

bill

I have no first hand experience with clethodim and I would guess it will be harder to find the information regarding that. In most instances from a commercial standpoint there would be no reason to apply clethodim in an orchard or nursery setting. Producers are looking to eradicate all competition from the trees not just the grasses. I can see where clethodim would be a useful product from the habitat builders perspective.

 

[sandbur]

I'm trying to figure out some HC's that are having troubles. All are Geneva roots, below the graft union are splitting and rotting, the leaves are yellowing, but look different then the shriveled pics you posted. They are just yellowing and staying small. I've got some HC's in the same rows that are on B9, and they are fine. I would bet it is from gly, but not sure. They were also over-cropped 3rd leaf trees last year. Looks like I'm going to loose a few. I don't recall any brown edges though.

My HC had been a struggle, and I cut it down. Maybe the calcium thing that has been discussed on this forum.

Now I found a fairly large tree along the back field with decent sized apples on it. It seems like I bought two HC way back in time and one went in that location. Different and much better soil. Time will tell.

 

[chickenlittle]

Maya, could be a virus issue. You should contact the USDA at Geneva to get their opinion. Email of rootstock breeding is genarro.fazio@ars.usda.gov.

I'm trying to figure out some HC's that are having troubles. All are Geneva roots, below the graft union are splitting and rotting, the leaves are yellowing, but look different then the shriveled pics you posted. They are just yellowing and staying small. I've got some HC's in the same rows that are on B9, and they are fine. I would bet it is from gly, but not sure. They were also over-cropped 3rd leaf trees last year. Looks like I'm going to loose a few. I don't recall any brown edges though.

 

[Maya]

Maya, could be a virus issue. You should contact the USDA at Geneva to get their opinion. Email of rootstock breeding is genarro.fazio@ars.usda.gov.

Ya, maybe I'll do that. I do have an e-mail in to UVM, but have not heard back from them.

 

[Maya]

My HC had been a struggle, and I cut it down. Maybe the calcium thing that has been discussed on this forum.

Now I found a fairly large tree along the back field with decent sized apples on it. It seems like I bought two HC way back in time and one went in that location. Different and much better soil. Time will tell.

It would not be calcium deficiency, I've got over 300, it's just about 5-6 on Geneva roots. I really think they did not like being over cropped, and/or did not like gly, which I am not using anymore. Stress from that I think, but we'll see.

 

[Turkey Creek]

It does seem that a lot of people have had issues with HC on Geneva root stocks. I know the Geneva root stocks have their place and fans, but I am really starting to doubt whether they are nearly as "special" as all the hype they have gotten.

The more you read they more you realize that the entire fruit industry is a lot of hype and advertising to push the next "best" thing. If you guys get bored look at some of the articles on "Cosmic Crisp", supposedly best apple ever invented. Should hit the stores this fall or next. Millions of dollars have went into advertising and ripping out old blocks of trees to get ready for this variety which hasnt even been in a grocery store yet. If it flops a lot of people in the Washington state apple business are going to take a beating. Cant wait for the price on those apples. Probably be the first apple to priced by the apple and not by the pound!