Whole Lotta Shakin' Goin' On at WhitetailCrabs

[Gmule82]

Trees are up. Got my order in. Good luck everyone.

 

[Mattyq2402]

I have heard a few people say that their whitetail crabs outgrew their bluehill trees. Interested to see how they do on my crappy soil. They're getting planted on the edges of my food plot so ph and nutrient levels are decent.

I just wanted more variety this year and like how Ryan describes each of his trees in the description. Time will tell how they do compared to my whitetail crabs. Definitely will be ordering more from Terry in the future.

I have side by side trees and Terry's trees are out pacing the BH. I'm excited for both!

 

[Brian662]

The below message is a reply from Terry the owner of Whitetail Crabs

"We have our counts done and should have numbers in the next couple days on the web. We are breaking them into some different sizes now...our 3-4' size do not include the root length and average more towards the 4' ( heavy average 3/8" caliper) range..so a real nice tree. I would say the trees are average size this year from an abnormally cold spring into summer...and record freeze in May. Look to next 2 years for the extra large and jumbos to be back..the roostock we just budded last month is looking great and we have increased numbers significantly for following years. Feel free to pass this along. Thanks!! "

Would you guys wait a year for better trees or just go for it this year anyways? Planning to put an order in for 12, already have a few established orchards, but these WC trees would be in more strategic hunting locations.

 

[White Oak]

Would you guys wait a year for better trees or just go for it this year anyways? Planning to put an order in for 12, already have a few established orchards, but these WC trees would be in more strategic hunting locatio

Would you guys wait a year for better trees or just go for it this year anyways? Planning to put an order in for 12, already have a few established orchards, but these WC trees would be in more strategic hunting locations.

According to the website , he's holding some trees over so there will be some Larger trees next year. I don't know what type of soil or location you are planting in, BUT in My experience Terry's trees are fast growers. Maybe split the difference and plant 6 trees this year , then get the larger size the following year .

 

[Wind Gypsy]

I would guess a year earlier in the final location is better than another year growth at the nursery before planting in final location but dont know. You guys aren't worried about b118 rootstock? Seen enough guys have poor anchoring issues with it here that I have avoided it.

 

[Tree Spud]

Would you guys wait a year for better trees or just go for it this year anyways? Planning to put an order in for 12, already have a few established orchards, but these WC trees would be in more strategic hunting locations.

The sooner you get them in "your" ground the better. Trees you buy now will certainly catch-up to what he is offering in 1-2 years, and you will get the roots established in year 1-2.

Remember the ole adage ... year 1 roots seep ... year 2 roots creep ... year 3 tree leaps.

 

[Mortenson]

The B118 would give me pause also. A few stories here plus seeing a couple of mine leaning. A few others I have on B118 are standing strong, for now at least. IIRC B118 is well suited for more sandy sites. Maybe they anchor more deeply in those soils? On tight clay perhaps they can't penetrate.

 

[Brian662]

My soils are light medium silt on the top 24" and medium clay below that for the most part. Lots of limestone in the hills around me.
Guys have recommended placing large rock(s) in the hole at planting to help give the roots a place to anchor.

 

[Backspasm]

From carefully reading all the apple rootstock threads on here from the past several years, seems like there is lots of evidence that b118 isn’t the best choice for wildlife trees and that m111 isn’t the best either. Ryan at bluehill alone has some pretty convincing evidence to me that dolgo is superior or perhaps anatonovka. Those are what I’ll be starting for grafting purposes

 

[Wind Gypsy]

My soils are light medium silt on the top 24" and medium clay below that for the most part. Lots of limestone in the hills around me.
Guys have recommended placing large rock(s) in the hole at planting to help give the roots a place to anchor.

Are you set on WC varieties? I think you should be able to get stuff from turkey creek on m111 or Midwest deer trees on Dolgo rootstock still for next year. I’m sure there’s others I’m missing.

 

[Brian662]

Are you set on WC varieties? I think you should be able to get stuff from turkey creek on m111 or Midwest deer trees on Dolgo rootstock still for next year. I’m sure there’s others I’m missing.

I'm not set on them, I've just read some good things about them and the attractiveness of their fruit to the deer. Washington State Univ has a rootstock link that states B118 is "well anchored" but obviously that's not everyone's experience.

 

[Mortenson]

I grafted a bunch of Droptine, Kerr, 30-06 and Winter Wildlife on dolgo rootstock from Bluehill. I'd go that route. Choose the trees you most want and buy the dolgo roots.

 

[Wind Gypsy]

I'm not set on them, I've just read some good things about them and the attractiveness of their fruit to the deer. Washington State Univ has a rootstock link that states B118 is "well anchored" but obviously that's not everyone's experience.

Funny how that works! M111 is specifically listed as not tolerant to wet feet on USDA's ARS site but i've seen it recommended specifically for that application elsewhere. The reported vigor of the b118 trees is certainly attractive, would just hate to have a tree coming into it's prime after a decade + and then have it tip.

Here's what Penn st says about b118:

 

[Brian662]

I grafted a bunch of Droptine, Kerr, 30-06 and Winter Wildlife on dolgo rootstock from Bluehill. I'd go that route. Choose the trees you most want and buy the dolgo roots.

I wouldn't even know where to begin with all this. How much time/effort/care is involved in grafting? I am more of a plant tree, weed mat, fence, and water kind of guy.

 

[Mortenson]

Doesn't take much. Some electric tape and a sharp knife. Possibly wax or treekote. Biggest investment would be spending a couple hours reading a few threads here and watching a video or 2. And then prep a little spot for your nursery.

 

[Gmule82]

My soils are light medium silt on the top 24" and medium clay below that for the most part. Lots of limestone in the hills around me.
Guys have recommended placing large rock(s) in the hole at planting to help give the roots a place to anchor.

Well hopefully then my soil has huge rocks everywhere and will help out. I didn’t know about the B188 issues and my soil is super heavy clay. Planted 7 whitetail crabs last year and got another 15 this year. Guess time will tell.

 

[TWalter91]

I am loving the growth of my whitetail crabs but I have only had them in the ground since April. Here is a few pictures of a droptine that my friend planted 4+ years ago I believe. Was loaded this year and tipped over on him. Sandy loam soil.

 

[Mortenson]

^^^ Whoa that's awful! Ugh let me guess, B118?

 

[TWalter91]

^^^ Whoa that's awful! Ugh let me guess, B118?

I asked him if it was. But he wasn't sure since they didnt disclose it when he bought it.

 

[bigboreblr]

Twalter91,

Did he prune the tree every winter? Without pruning the tree will grow faster than the roots. Also, what did he do for amendment? Havig compacted soil with hole of nice good loose stuff can prevent good root growth.

Roots grow out of necesity. Make an environment where nutrients and water is easy to come by, the roots can get lazy. That my concern with my trees at home.

With my new orchard site, I put in a mix of B118, M111, and Antonovka. See what works well. I have loamy clay around low 6's pH. I lightly amended a 6ft dia circle down to 3ft deep in the middle. Gallon of peat moss, 1/2 bag of topsoil, 2 or 3 handfuls of 6-24-24 and 4 or 5 handfuls of pelletized lime. The later trees are staked and seem to do better than those that arent.

Terry sent me droptine and 30-06 on antonovka. He has crossbow too, wish I got some on antonovka.

Turkey Creek in Kansas has well known varieties in a variety of rootstocks. M111, B118, M7. Many tree nurseries sell M111 and B118. They can't be that bad.

Up north I have sandy soil and it's zone 3. Atonovka or dolgo are my only choices more or less. I am transplanting (2) 30-06's from last year up north that re on B118. Think B118 will survive out there. I wat a few more vrieties at home, so some duplicates are going. got about 30 planted this past year.

We are not growing trees like commercial orchards in the US in 2023. 50 years ago, P18 was a great rootstock. My home is an old orchard site with some trees still alive. I suspect they're P18's based on size and root structure and color. I bought a orchard ladder from a retiring apple farmer. He had some trees freshly dug up and still had some on his home site producing well too. Sure looked P18. Think that would be a great rootstock to try. G890 although smaller than B118 or M111 can be decent ones too. Many many many years ago, hewes crabapple was a very common rootstock in the colonies / early earthen usa. I've had zero luck growing trees from seed.


One thing I am going to try this spring is to take a metal rod and drive holes wider and deeper. Sort of subsoiling. Probably 5ft deep and a 8-10ft dia circle. Still going to amend lightly and loosen up like i did over the winter before my trees came.


One big Plus Terry offer that most do not, fall shipping. Get those trees in the ground and they start growing sooner.