Warm season grass varieties southern IL

[Booner21]

I am getting ready to enroll a large portion of a couple properties in crp. I am planting enough acreage I would prefer to not pay the premium for an unknown mixed variety from the buck on the bag folks even if they claim to not be. I am looking at what others have had good success with for Indian grass and big blue. Seems switch is either cir or kanlow. If all is accepted I will be putting in about 120 acres across 3 properties.


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[Native Hunter]

I would recommend against planting Big Bluestem, because most of it goes down too easily in the winter. The Indian Grass that I got from Roundstone Native Seeds stands the winter extremely well. That's also true of their Little Bluestem, which gets over 5 feet high. My switch is CIR, and I love it as well. I've been told that my Big Blue is Kaw, and I don't like it nearly as well as the other grasses.

If you have to plant any Big Bluestem, I have seen a shorter variety (but still pretty tall) that stands up over the winter better than most - but I don't know what the variety is. You could probably ask around some and find out more. Just be sure that they understand that "winter standability" is important to you. The guys at Roundstone could advise on that whether you buy seed from them or not.

Lots of inexperienced advisers in these government programs have quail on their brain and could care less about deer cover. They will recommend grasses that are too short for deer cover and that will disappear from being choked out in a couple of years. An example is Sideoats Grama. Stuff like this is just a waste of your money and also takes up space that could have been used with more of what you really need in the mix. You will only have so much say in what you plant, but push as hard as you can for species that provide tall cover as well as standing up in the winter.

 

[Tree Spud]

What I have read is that Big Blue will eventually out compete all other grasses and will create a mono-culture. My 40 acres is CIR and very happy ... 3rd year and in some areas 4'-6'.

Consider Little Blue Stem. Much of what I have read is let the SG get established and then add Little Blue.

As NH said, local mangers are focused on what they want, not necessarily aligned with your goals. Once you sign up, they will monitor.

 

[Booner21]

Yeah I got that already this will be great for deer year right it is a quail and pheasant mix. I will give a couple seed companies that have multiple varieties a call thanks. Everyone seems to have an agenda we sell it because we believe in it it is Worth the premium. Hard to trust them when they are profiting directly from it.

I have used Ernst seeds for cir and was satisfied with it as well on a very small scale. Roundstone and Ernst are the two I have heard recommended for nwsg seed.


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[buckdeer1]

I have used blackwell switch also,usually the USDA office can tell you witch variety is best for your area.That is alot of crp think about how you will burn and how you will hunt.Maybe you can get firebreaks in if they are needed where your fields are

 

[Native Hunter]

I think the old NWSG threads by Paul Knox on Iowa Whitetails are still there; however, a lot of the pictures don't show up anymore. His information on winter standabilty was awesome, and was something that I have never seen anywhere else. He showed pictures of whole fields of some grasses just laying flat on the ground from hardly anything more than just wind. Some of them didn't even make it until winter before they went down. That is going to be a disaster for someone managing for deer.

I got lucky with my Indian Grass, because it stands the winter well here. However, he showed some fields of Indian that flopped as badly as Big Blue. Location is also going to make a big difference. The harsher the winters, the more impact on the NWSGs. All I can say is do your homework and ask the right questions - and every question needs to address the height of the cover and the ability to stand through the winter.

 

[ksgobbler]

https://www.gostarseed.com/catalog/...413/product/Asylum--Insane-Deer-Bedding/1629/

 

[Booner21]

I think the old NWSG threads by Paul Knox on Iowa Whitetails are still there; however, a lot of the pictures don't show up anymore. His information on winter standabilty was awesome, and was something that I have never seen anywhere else. He showed pictures of whole fields of some grasses just laying flat on the ground from hardly anything more than just wind. Some of them didn't even make it until winter before they went down. That is going to be a disaster for someone managing for deer.

I got lucky with my Indian Grass, because it stands the winter well here. However, he showed some fields of Indian that flopped as badly as Big Blue. Location is also going to make a big difference. The harsher the winters, the more impact on the NWSGs. All I can say is do your homework and ask the right questions - and every question needs to address the height of the cover and the ability to stand through the winter.

I made it through about half the thread recently but the pictures missing was rough I didn’t see winter stnadability tied to any varieties but I may have missed it.


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[Booner21]

https://www.gostarseed.com/catalog/...413/product/Asylum--Insane-Deer-Bedding/1629/

Thanks that is a little cheaper than bedding in a bag.


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[H20fwler]

I've got fourteen acres of big&little blue stem out with switch and indian, it is in its fourth year. In my area the switch out competes the others so I didn't plant it as heavy from the start. This fall was the first year it was all nice and tall around 6' going into winter, we haven't had much deep snow yet but have had lots of rain and lots of strong winds and it's still standing very well. This past year is the first year I've really had deer bedding in it regular along with good cover for bunnies and pheasant.

 

[scott44]

My first plantings of switch was straight CIR, know I do mixes of Kanlow and CIR. Earnst seed sells southlow Indian and Big Blue which is a MI ecotype and I've had decent luck with them, they also used to sell southlow switch that was a little shorter about 3-4', I have a field of it.

Pure CIR on the left and a Southlow Indian and Big Blue on the right.

 

[roymunson]

Anyone tried the Don Higgins blend? I know a guy who said his Real World stuff held up better to snow than the straight cave in rock stuff. Good grief it's expensive stuff tho!

 

[ksgobbler]

This is my native big blue, indian grass, etc today on our walk.

 

[bigeight]

Anyone tried the Don Higgins blend? I know a guy who said his Real World stuff held up better to snow than the straight cave in rock stuff. Good grief it's expensive stuff tho!

I have used a good amount of both the Bedding in a Bag, as well as the RW Switch grass. Wish I had known about it before using Pheasant Forever blends/mixing my own for my WSG mixes and CIR for my Switch grass. Side by side, the Real World products are taller, stand up better and seem to be easier to establish.

Planting CIR I usually go 8-10#/acre, the RW Switch I have going 4-5#/ acre, so the price gets closer/acre. Once established the RW switch is about 2-2.5' taller on average, and the stand stands up ALL winter long. Super thick stalks, almost like a thin sorghum stalk. Most are close to the diameter of my pinky finger.
Having said all this, I usually plant smaller 5 acre fields of straight switch and switch grass screens, so the extra couple feet of height is VERY much worth it to me to spend a little more. If I was doing a huge field of straight switch, maybe that height wouldn't matter to me with that large of an area of security cover.

Spring time after a heavy snow and icey winter, I can park my truck on the other side of a 10' wide strip of RWS switch grass and you cannot see it at all. I'm not tall (5'6"), but reaching as tall as I can in the spring, the tips of the RW switch is still close to a foot over the tips of my fingers.

The Bedding in a Bag (BIB) I have experienced the same as the switch grass. Taller than anything else I have planted, and stands up better. I work on CRP projects in OH, and MI that calls for WSG mixes. Probably adding up to 4,000 acres in total in WSG mixes and combination. The BIB if I can use it/afford it, get reimbursed for it, it's not even close for performance. Several instances where the USDA person checking the stands is blown away and taking pictures asking what in the heck did you plant?

I farted around for about 30 minutes attempting to post my own videos and pics from my phone. Apparently that skill is beyond me :-(

A cool video I usually send my buddies for a "non advertisement" style of video that shows a mature stand is Don Higgins harvesting a buck that comes out of a stand of BIB. The whole video is worth a watch, but if you FFW to the 9:30 mark it shows the recovery, and them walking in the stand without a sales pitch gives you a good idea of height and how thick it is. :

 

[Mortenson]

I always said if I do a few more acres of switch I'll give Higgins a try. Heard enough good things. Seems like a nice guy and he's one of the last remaining business owners who hasn't fled the state of IL yet.

 

[Booner21]

Anyone tried the Don Higgins blend? I know a guy who said his Real World stuff held up better to snow than the straight cave in rock stuff. Good grief it's expensive stuff tho!

I have used a good amount of both the Bedding in a Bag, as well as the RW Switch grass. Wish I had known about it before using Pheasant Forever blends/mixing my own for my WSG mixes and CIR for my Switch grass. Side by side, the Real World products are taller, stand up better and seem to be easier to establish.

Planting CIR I usually go 8-10#/acre, the RW Switch I have going 4-5#/ acre, so the price gets closer/acre. Once established the RW switch is about 2-2.5' taller on average, and the stand stands up ALL winter long. Super thick stalks, almost like a thin sorghum stalk. Most are close to the diameter of my pinky finger.
Having said all this, I usually plant smaller 5 acre fields of straight switch and switch grass screens, so the extra couple feet of height is VERY much worth it to me to spend a little more. If I was doing a huge field of straight switch, maybe that height wouldn't matter to me with that large of an area of security cover.

Spring time after a heavy snow and icey winter, I can park my truck on the other side of a 10' wide strip of RWS switch grass and you cannot see it at all. I'm not tall (5'6"), but reaching as tall as I can in the spring, the tips of the RW switch is still close to a foot over the tips of my fingers.

The Bedding in a Bag (BIB) I have experienced the same as the switch grass. Taller than anything else I have planted, and stands up better. I work on CRP projects in OH, and MI that calls for WSG mixes. Probably adding up to 4,000 acres in total in WSG mixes and combination. The BIB if I can use it/afford it, get reimbursed for it, it's not even close for performance. Several instances where the USDA person checking the stands is blown away and taking pictures asking what in the heck did you plant?

I farted around for about 30 minutes attempting to post my own videos and pics from my phone. Apparently that skill is beyond me :-(

A cool video I usually send my buddies for a "non advertisement" style of video that shows a mature stand is Don Higgins harvesting a buck that comes out of a stand of BIB. The whole video is worth a watch, but if you FFW to the 9:30 mark it shows the recovery, and them walking in the stand without a sales pitch gives you a good idea of height and how thick it is. :

He kills some absolute giants but Nothing Higgins does is without a sales pitch of some kind despite always saying it isn’t. He has fantastic luck with his mix and I have heard a lot of people recommend it most of them either are on staff with Rww or sell his products when I start asking questions. He lives and breathes whitetail deer for sure. I don’t believe that his mix is different than a commercial variety of some kind. I also don’t want to pay a premium for nothing or have a flat field after the first snow hence the question. I appreciate the responses


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[BobinCt]

I called Ernst Conservation Seed yesterday to see what cultivar would be best suited for Connecticut . I advised him I want something that gets 5-7 ft and has to stand up well to the snow. He told me Shelter and Shawnee. He also sells CIR, but said he would go with those two instead. Has anyone ever heard anything about them? I’m not sure if they would be the right cultivars for Illinois, but you can certainly give him a call.

 

[Booner21]

I called Ernst Conservation Seed yesterday to see what cultivar would be best suited for Connecticut . I advised him I want something that gets 5-7 ft and has to stand up well to the snow. He told me Shelter and Shawnee. He also sells CIR, but said he would go with those two instead. Has anyone ever heard anything about them? I’m not sure if they would be the right cultivars for Illinois, but you can certainly give him a call.

Thanks I ordered cir from them previously I am going to call Ernst and roundstone.


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[roymunson]

He kills some absolute giants but Nothing Higgins does is without a sales pitch of some kind despite always saying it isn’t. He has fantastic luck with his mix and I have heard a lot of people recommend it most of them either are on staff with Rww or sell his products when I start asking questions. He lives and breathes whitetail deer for sure. I don’t believe that his mix is different than a commercial variety of some kind. I also don’t want to pay a premium for nothing or have a flat field after the first snow hence the question. I appreciate the responses


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That's your perogative, but if like you said, the guy kills giants, has good success with what he has, and lives and breathes whitetails, wouldn't that be a decent reason to pay a premium from a guy who has hands on experience doing this? Rather than a distant seed company for a couple dollars a pound cheaper who tries to make up for that by pushing volume thru?

I don't have a dog in the fight, but we're all making a sales pitch at work every day. To a client or our boss, if we're not showing why what we do makes us worthwhile, we'll be out of a job. He just has to do it more directly than you do. He's in it to make money. If he'd kill a bunch of deer and never tell anyone what he's using, the seed he's trying to make a living off of, he'd be an idiot. Can't have it both ways.

I'm sure there are other options out there, but the next guy on here who says his stuff is sub par will be the first I've seen. That's a pretty good endorsement isn't it?

 

[bigeight]

He kills some absolute giants but Nothing Higgins does is without a sales pitch of some kind despite always saying it isn’t. He has fantastic luck with his mix and I have heard a lot of people recommend it most of them either are on staff with Rww or sell his products when I start asking questions. He lives and breathes whitetail deer for sure. I don’t believe that his mix is different than a commercial variety of some kind. I also don’t want to pay a premium for nothing or have a flat field after the first snow hence the question. I appreciate the responses


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FWIW , I absolutely have nothing to do with RW anything. Never met Don, talked to him on the phone, emailed or other. You asked for people who had experience with products of WSG mixes and their results.
They are taller, thicker, stand up better in winter in snow and ice compared to all the other varieties mentioned on this thread that I have used. I have even used a couple more not mentioned.
FYI in case anyone else I under the impression that I'm advertising for RW seeds instead of giving my honest results after trying several different mixes and mixing my own with the most popular varieties on thousands of acres.
Couldn't get my one pics to post, that was the best video to show the actual product I had the best luck with. When they are walking in the WSG for the recovery that is the best comparison to other mixes.
I'd just compare to the last time you tracked a deer in a WSG stand. Was it that tall and thick ? That's how our mature stands look for height/and difficult to push through. Figured the video would be harder to fake for an "advertisement " on his part. Still shots you can mess with angle/depth, etc for comparison. Cant fake that with a video, that's why I chose that. Not as a "plug for RW".

That's been my experience:-)