Thoughts on Low Maintenance, Perrennial Food Plot for HIGH DENSITY area?

[piker53]

Preface...this is on Beaver Island, MI....high deer density, little to no agriculture within miles of our property. Cedar/Conifer swamps for miles..... we harvested 5 does this year, however, it doesn’t appear to have made a dent.....our current plots have been mowed to the dirt, brassicas can’t mature, etc. Roughly 9 acres currently planted.....Olllllllld Apple Orchard, with roughly 200 additional crabs/pears planted in the past 5 years.....Thoughts on #2 below? Would like to have less time spent on perrenials going forward so that we can dedicate more time to creating new plots.

Spring 2019 Plans:
1) High Fence 3 acres of RR Sugar Beets
2) Perrenial Mix: RR Alfalfa, Birdsfoot Trefoil, Kura Clover
3) Add 20 more Mid to Late Dropping Crabs (Chestnut, 30-06)

 

[yoderjac]

My thoughts are this: if you are not operating on enough scale to do QDM, forget the spring plant for deer. If you plant in the spring do it for the soil and make deer use a secondary consideration. As for perennial food plots that are low maintenance, there is nothing better than clover. It is very low cost and low maintenance if you fall plant it with a cover crop, mow the first spring as needed to release it, and become weed tolerant thereafter. A single planting will provide good food for 5 to 7 or more years with no maintenance other than one mowing before the season.

The perennial mix you list doesn't make much sense to me. Alfalfa is much more sensitive than clover and the fill a similar niche. Some folks like it because it is more attractive for them, but you say you have no ag for competition. It doesn't make much sense to me to mix a RR product with non-RR crops. You lose the characteristic you are paying the premium for because gly will kill the companion crops. In a case where ag completion is not a factor, I'd keep it as simple as possible. Stagger your perennial clover plots so you are always rotating one or two fields a year as the get old. Rotate into an N seeking crop. Buckwheat or a grain sorghum are good spring plants for this. You can even use RR corn if that works for you.

The apples are a good long-term move to sustainable permaculture but focus on disease resistant crabs if you are looking for low maintenance. Folks in your region can give you better advice on specific clovers.

Thanks,

jack

 

[Natty Bumppo]

2) Perrenial Mix: RR Alfalfa, Birdsfoot Trefoil, Kura Clover

I like your ideas for Birdsfoot Trefoil (BT) and Kura Clover (KC). With your cedar/spruce swamps I'm guessing the soil is fairly acidic? I have experimented with both on my swampy/acidic soils and have had great success. The say Kura can be tough to establish. I did not find that to be the case. I have never tried alfalfa as everything I have read says it does not do well on swampy acidic soils.

 

[Catscratch]

My thoughts are this: if you are not operating on enough scale to do QDM, forget the spring plant for deer.

A bit off topic, but I always figured the more of the year that deer spent on my place the more likely they would feel comfortable on my place during hunting season. ie - my spring plots might not be significantly beneficial to deer but it may help my hunting. Thoughts?

 

[Chainsaw]

We have good luck with fall planted clover lasting many years here as Yoderjack recommended. Chicory planted with it is also lasting as well(it seems to reseed itself). We mix different clover types known to be northern hardy together with the chicory and it works here well. PH here is not usually below 6. Also go easy on the chicory as a little goes a long way. We used from 1/2 to one LB. of chicory seed per acre when mixed with the full amount of recommended clover and we were happy with that. Buying chicory in small enough quantities to use all the seeds in one year is important as I don't think leftover seeds lasts well in the bag or at least ours did not.

 

[S.T.Fanatic]

Lets clear up what you are trying to accomplish.

The way I see it, increasing food in a high deer numbers area is only going to increase the deer numbers not decrease it.

How many deer is your group legally able to harvest?

 

[yoderjac]

A bit off topic, but I always figured the more of the year that deer spent on my place the more likely they would feel comfortable on my place during hunting season. ie - my spring plots might not be significantly beneficial to deer but it may help my hunting. Thoughts?

There has been a lot of research on how, depending on habitat, deer can move seasonally spending more time in one part of their home range during one part of the year verses another. On larger properties where you can reduce the home range of a deer and keep a large part of their time on your land, spring plots make sense to me. Also if you are in the south and trying to cover the summer stress period, again with a large enough parcel to operate on scale. We all have time and resource constraints. I think that one small properties, a couple hundred acres or less, resources can be better applied focusing on the season. This excludes cooperatives and other situations where you may not own sufficient land, but you have sufficient influence on adjoining land to consider it part of your management plan.

We've got around 400 ac with about that much in adjoining land with some level of influence. I'm still planting warm season annuals to cover the summer stress period here in zone 7a and trying to do QDM, but we are probably on the ratty edge. I do think there are some deer that spend a large portion of their time on our land because of the year round plots. Also, we were in a unique situation similar to the OP in that we had no ag but pasture within 3 miles. Our biologist told us one of the reasons we had such a hard time getting our numbers under control was that during the summer when native food dried up, our soybeans were the best food in town. Deer range further when quality food is scarce and for every hole we left in the social structure by killing a doe in the fall, one of the immigrating does would stay and take its place. Eventually a combination of disease, coyotes, and our hunting pressure got numbers under control.

The OP was looking to spend more time creating new plots. That to me meant resource limited at least in time. So, from a priority basis, I'd place most spring planting as a lower priority in the north especially if the property is smaller. The exception of course are crops like beans and corn that are planted in the spring but last into the winter stress period. Perhaps folks up north have less weed issues, but I find much more success with planting most perennials in his plan in the fall.

Thanks,

jack

 

[Bill]

A bit off topic, but I always figured the more of the year that deer spent on my place the more likely they would feel comfortable on my place during hunting season. ie - my spring plots might not be significantly beneficial to deer but it may help my hunting. Thoughts?

I'm with you here. No facts to support it, but I believe the more a deer spends "safe" time on your land the better, regardless of the reason. They survive because they've learn where it's safe when pressure picks up.

 

[Chainsaw]

There has been a lot of research on how, depending on habitat, deer can move seasonally spending more time in one part of their home range during one part of the year verses another. On larger properties where you can reduce the home range of a deer and keep a large part of their time on your land, spring plots make sense to me. Also if you are in the south and trying to cover the summer stress period, again with a large enough parcel to operate on scale. We all have time and resource constraints. I think that one small properties, a couple hundred acres or less, resources can be better applied focusing on the season. This excludes cooperatives and other situations where you may not own sufficient land, but you have sufficient influence on adjoining land to consider it part of your management plan.

We've got around 400 ac with about that much in adjoining land with some level of influence. I'm still planting warm season annuals to cover the summer stress period here in zone 7a and trying to do QDM, but we are probably on the ratty edge. I do think there are some deer that spend a large portion of their time on our land because of the year round plots. Also, we were in a unique situation similar to the OP in that we had no ag but pasture within 3 miles. Our biologist told us one of the reasons we had such a hard time getting our numbers under control was that during the summer when native food dried up, our soybeans were the best food in town. Deer range further when quality food is scarce and for every hole we left in the social structure by killing a doe in the fall, one of the immigrating does would stay and take its place. Eventually a combination of disease, coyotes, and our hunting pressure got numbers under control.

The OP was looking to spend more time creating new plots. That to me meant resource limited at least in time. So, from a priority basis, I'd place most spring planting as a lower priority in the north especially if the property is smaller. The exception of course are crops like beans and corn that are planted in the spring but last into the winter stress period. Perhaps folks up north have less weed issues, but I find much more success with planting most perennials in his plan in the fall.

Thanks,

jack

I don't know how much weed issues you have so can't say if we have less or more here in northern New York off the eastern end of Lake Ontario. I have tried spring planting clover in the past but stopped that program many, many years go;The weeds come up better than the clover and out grow it as well. Planting the clover in the fall with or without rye/oats or chicory has produced some great clover plots. Planting chicory with the clover doesn't seem to hurt the clover at all as long as the chicory is used sparingly. Oats and rye seem to help it by taking some of the browsing pressure off the new tiny clover plants.

 

[yoderjac]

I don't know how much weed issues you have so can't say if we have less or more here in northern New York off the eastern end of Lake Ontario. I have tried spring planting clover in the past but stopped that program many, many years go;The weeds come up better than the clover and out grow it as well. Planting the clover in the fall with or without rye/oats or chicory has produced some great clover plots. Planting chicory with the clover doesn't seem to hurt the clover at all as long as the chicory is used sparingly. Oats and rye seem to help it by taking some of the browsing pressure off the new tiny clover plants.

You are spot on. I have become very weed tolerant when it comes to clover. I start with the cleanest field possible using best practices of fall planting with WR and doing timely mowing the first spring to release the clover. After that, I usually mow once a year right before the season, sometimes twice at most. I typically get around 7 years out of durana before the "weeds" become bad enough that I need to refurbish it. I can usually spray with 1 qt of gly, with rain in the forecast, top kill the clover, and it bounces back and gives me a few more years before I have to rotate. Many of the broadleaf "weeds" are even better deer food than the clover itself and I simply put up with the grasses. I would not consider planting clover in the spring. When I have in the past, I the weeds take over the field very fast and I spend much more time and money fighting them or I have to start over. I'm talking perennial clover here, not annual.

Our warm season annual plots are quite different. I'm in zone 7a and it is far enough south that summer is our more major stress period. I typically plant soybeans to cover the summer forage requirements. My deer numbers are down right now but historically, the combination of browse pressure and summer weeds, I had a very hard time getting beans to canopy. I was over 5 acres of RR forage beans before they would canopy. Gly reduced the weed competition and the volume, growth rate, and browse resistance of the forage beans got ahead of the deer. When our deer numbers dropped I was able to use ag beans. Down here I don't plant beans for pods but ag beans were much less expensive.

After thinning pines and conducting a controlled burn, marestail invaded our bean fields. Gly advantaged the marestail more than the beans. Last year we stopped planting beans and moved to buckwheat to give us time to control the marestail. We plan to mix some sunn hemp with the buckwheat this year to provide N fixation.

So for me, weeds are an issue for many warm season annuals, but not for fall planted clover.

Thanks,

jack

 

[j-bird]

Just to help with some perspective....how big is the place you manage that has these 9 acres of plots? I see the island itself is roughly 55 square miles with a population of less than 700 people, it also looks like a large part (maybe in the 50% range) of the island is public land as well...(google). If your plots are seeing that sort of use...what does your understory look like?

 

[scott44]

Preface...this is on Beaver Island, MI....high deer density, little to no agriculture within miles of our property. Cedar/Conifer swamps for miles..... we harvested 5 does this year, however, it doesn’t appear to have made a dent.....our current plots have been mowed to the dirt, brassicas can’t mature, etc. Roughly 9 acres currently planted.....Olllllllld Apple Orchard, with roughly 200 additional crabs/pears planted in the past 5 years.....Thoughts on #2 below? Would like to have less time spent on perrenials going forward so that we can dedicate more time to creating new plots.

Spring 2019 Plans:
1) High Fence 3 acres of RR Sugar Beets
2) Perrenial Mix: RR Alfalfa, Birdsfoot Trefoil, Kura Clover
3) Add 20 more Mid to Late Dropping Crabs (Chestnut, 30-06)

I like #2 I'd go with alfalfa, a mix of red and white clover and chickory. Trefoil can be hit and miss for deer, mine only eat it when it really dry and it's the only thing that's still green. Good luck with whatever you go with!

 

[piker53]

My thoughts are this: if you are not operating on enough scale to do QDM, forget the spring plant for deer. If you plant in the spring do it for the soil and make deer use a secondary consideration. As for perennial food plots that are low maintenance, there is nothing better than clover. It is very low cost and low maintenance if you fall plant it with a cover crop, mow the first spring as needed to release it, and become weed tolerant thereafter. A single planting will provide good food for 5 to 7 or more years with no maintenance other than one mowing before the season.

The perennial mix you list doesn't make much sense to me. Alfalfa is much more sensitive than clover and the fill a similar niche. Some folks like it because it is more attractive for them, but you say you have no ag for competition. It doesn't make much sense to me to mix a RR product with non-RR crops. You lose the characteristic you are paying the premium for because gly will kill the companion crops. In a case where ag completion is not a factor, I'd keep it as simple as possible. Stagger your perennial clover plots so you are always rotating one or two fields a year as the get old. Rotate into an N seeking crop. Buckwheat or a grain sorghum are good spring plants for this. You can even use RR corn if that works for you.

The apples are a good long-term move to sustainable permaculture but focus on disease resistant crabs if you are looking for low maintenance. Folks in your region can give you better advice on specific clovers.

Thanks,

jack

The reason for the Trefoil and Kura Clover, it has been said to me that they are almost considered Round Up Ready (Ed Spin). The property I co-own is 160 acres. We will be turning a fallow 3 acre field into the high fenced field of RR Sugar Beets. The ground is rocky, but PH is not too bad at 6.2.

 

[piker53]

Just to help with some perspective....how big is the place you manage that has these 9 acres of plots? I see the island itself is roughly 55 square miles with a population of less than 700 people, it also looks like a large part (maybe in the 50% range) of the island is public land as well...(google). If your plots are seeing that sort of use...what does your understory look like?

Understory has been demolished as well....we had some logging done 3 years ago (winter cut), and harvested a fair amount of mature white pine drier areas that had overgrown part of the 1900’s apple orchard and white cedar in the wetter areas to make a perimeter trail.....we were hoping for substantial aspen regen, but I think the deer haven’t let it come back. We are having a local kid try to harvest another doe. Limiting factor is time, and finding people to donate the deer to. I don’t have time to process that much venison!

 

[H20fwler]

Chicory is a good ad, I've had very good success with it here planted with a good clover mix of red/white/crimson/ladino. I put out some Durana clover last summer after reading lots of very good reviews on it, I haven't had it out long enough yet for me to have a solid opinion on it yet.
I've also had good luck with birdsfoot trefoil but it takes a couple years to establish well and its great for a variety of wildlife nothing seems to really hit it hard just browse it some, the bees really like it.

Long term on your late dropping soft mast I would also look at Droptine crab and some of the late dropping pears from Wildlife Group.

 

[j-bird]

Understory has been demolished as well....we had some logging done 3 years ago (winter cut), and harvested a fair amount of mature white pine drier areas that had overgrown part of the 1900’s apple orchard and white cedar in the wetter areas to make a perimeter trail.....we were hoping for substantial aspen regen, but I think the deer haven’t let it come back. We are having a local kid try to harvest another doe. Limiting factor is time, and finding people to donate the deer to. I don’t have time to process that much venison!

It certainly sounds like you have too many deer. Are other hunters/land owners seeing the same thing? Is there any organization or collective push to reduce the numbers? It's going to take a large collective effort to make a real difference...and adding more food I don't think is going to help in my opinion. I would focus on trying to shoot as many deer as makes sense and try to get the deer to habitat balance back before I went opening up more land to feed them all. You are going to have a very difficult...dear I say impossible, time providing food and quality habitat at a faster rate than the deer can consume it based on what you describe.

If you want to see just how much damage the deer are doing...put an exclusion fence in your woods of a few square feet... In a few years time, maybe faster, it will demonstrate exactly what the impact of the deer are having.

I wish I was closer... I would offer to help with your doe problem! My household consumes 3 to 5 deer a year (depending on size of the deer) and at times my property struggles to provide that. I have NEVER had to give deer away! It also sounds like YOU process the deer yourself. I have the luxury of having a processing locker to do mine for me...So I can shoot mine and be out hunting again while the locker is butcher the deer...it comes at a cost...but everything does.

Good luck and I hope you find a means to regain some balance in your woods....

 

[yoderjac]

The reason for the Trefoil and Kura Clover, it has been said to me that they are almost considered Round Up Ready (Ed Spin). The property I co-own is 160 acres. We will be turning a fallow 3 acre field into the high fenced field of RR Sugar Beets. The ground is rocky, but PH is not too bad at 6.2.

I think they need to be well established like perennial clover.