Thoughts on culling bucks with poor genetic potential.

[Tree Spud]

It takes scale...large scale ...to manage a deer herd. With scale you absolutely can impact nutrition on a deer herd. With scale you absolutely can supplementally feed deer and reap the benefits. With supplemental feeding in many instances you can increase antler size 10-15% ..which also says something about the nutritional capacity of most properties. Which also points to nutrition many times is a limiter to deer expressing their full genetic potential.

These points make the idea of culling on smaller properties { less than 10,000 acres? } even less possible. I contend most folks are managing habitat to try to influence deer behavior vs. managing a deer herd.

Would be interesting to see what you do for supplemental feeding. Spoke to a guy once who owned a managed deer property and they spent over $125,000/yr to get similar results to what you have shown. I don't think people have any idea what it takes nutrition wise to get the results you get with the deer you have posted.

 

[Bill]

On our place the rule is if it looks like a hamster (late October/ November) with antlers you can shoot it. We kill some that are not high scoring deer but that gives us something to hunt and makes sure they're 4/5 plus years old. I'm in the camp that's says you can't change genetics but you can open a spot for a deer with more potential.

 

[omicron1792]

Most hunters will never see a 6 year old deer. Let your "cull" buck make it to 6 years old (like the live pic Baker posted) and compare it to the picture Baker posted before making your apples to apples assumption.

I shot a 6 year old two weeks ago. Zero chance the one I showed looks like bakers. I’ll bet a million bucks on it.


My best friend has raised trophy deer last 10 years. I have seen, helped, talked this on a non theoretical level.

These are 1 year old deer. Ain’t no nutrition that causes this gentlemen.

 

[omicron1792]

Would be interesting to see what you do for supplemental feeding. Spoke to a guy once who owned a managed deer property and they spent over $125,000/yr to get similar results to what you have shown. I don't think people have any idea what it takes nutrition wise to get the results you get with the deer you have posted.

My friends spends 2k a week on feed.

 

[omicron1792]

I shot a 6 year old two weeks ago. Zero chance the one I showed looks like bakers. I’ll bet a million bucks on it.

View attachment 60482
My best friend has raised trophy deer last 10 years. I have seen, helped, talked this on a non theoretical level.

These are 1 year old deer. Ain’t no nutrition that causes this gentlemen.

We can talk about the sales he goes too. The genetic breeding and crosses. You have to feed to reach the potential. But the potential is there before the feeding. Zero doubt.

 

[BenAllgood]

You're not going to get pen raised genetics in a free ranging herd. There's too much involved with getting those results.

 

[bueller]

Personally most times someone posts a pic of a buck and says with certainty that he is 3.5 (with or without potential) I don't buy it. IMO without previous year(s) history it's really just a guess.

 

[SwampCat]

this is the oldest buck I know I have ever had on my place - at least 7.5 in this pic. Was never what we considered a shooter. At best years - 4.5 or 5.5 - a 110/115 8 pt.

 

[omicron1792]

Personally most times someone posts a pic of a buck and says with certainty that he is 3.5 (with or without potential) I don't buy it. IMO without previous year(s) history it's really just a guess.

I agree with that. My recent buck I had a picture 2 years ago with him fully mature with huge rack. Youngest he could have been in pic was 4 or so.

He’s teeth were nubs too

 

[RGrizzzz]

White-tailed Deer: Are Antler Characteristics Inherited?

Read point five from Kerr large scale study.

1. You can improve a herd by selectively removing inferior antlered deer and allowing the deer with good antlers to breed.

summarized findings from 15 years of records from a 150-head captive deer herd" as follows

 

[S.T.Fanatic]

We have about 4 different rack configurations on our place. If we have 20 unique bucks on trail cam each one would fit into one of the four “makeup’s”

It gets quite difficult to track deer from one year to another. I shot a really nice 3.5 year old last year that I thought was a 6.5. The deer just look so similar it is hard to tell them apart sometimes and I spend hundreds of hours studying trail cam pics.


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[Baker]

I shot a 6 year old two weeks ago. Zero chance the one I showed looks like bakers. I’ll bet a million bucks on it.

View attachment 60482
My best friend has raised trophy deer last 10 years. I have seen, helped, talked this on a non theoretical level.

These are 1 year old deer. Ain’t no nutrition that causes this gentlemen.

I assume this whole discussion is about native homegrown genetics. Once the decision is made to introduce genetics , all the rules change. I'm going to bet the 1 yr olds above are in a high fence? Thats ok by me but it's the only way I know of folks are being successful with introduced genetics. With that there are ranches in Texas growing 500" whitetails with whitetails born in the wild from intensively controlled breeding and released does. To me that is an entirely different discussion from this one. Nonetheless without enhanced nutrition even introduced genetics never reach their potential.

Also interestingly, if there are still native bucks in a pasture with introduced genetics over time it balances back to the norm. Lots of times the introduced deer cant compete with the natives.

 

[Mortenson]

I don't think I've ever been able to distinguish a specific yearling buck into his 2nd year based on antler alone. We have a buck now, the Sophie buck (kids named him that as a 2.5 the day they found his sheds which was the day our dog Sophie died). As a 2.5 he was a spindly, narrow 8 point. As a 3.5 he was a spindly, narrow, but getting taller 8 point, probably 125". As a 4.5 his body became powerful and his 8 point rack grew to 140" with decent mass. This year as a 5.5 he turned into a 5x5 with a 10" drop. He wasn't destined for mediocrity in spite of his inauspicious start. Bad news is he's totally mocking me this year. Good news is he's apparently doing it to everyone else as well. Point being, getting him past 4.5 was critical but also very lucky. Maybe he got that old because he was nothing special as a 2.5 & 3.5. When my dad and I were getting started in the 90's it was brown down. We piled up a good collection of sweet yearlings and did it with pride. Everyone around us did also. Something changed and most guys now want bigger. I'm surprised other states (or areas in states) can't get past that culture of shooting yearlings. I know there are exceptions like needing the meat, only seeing 1 deer per year, or trying to protect does, etc.

 

[Baker]

Would be interesting to see what you do for supplemental feeding. Spoke to a guy once who owned a managed deer property and they spent over $125,000/yr to get similar results to what you have shown. I don't think people have any idea what it takes nutrition wise to get the results you get with the deer you have posted.

What I try to do is show potential. No question my circumstance is unique. By pushing the boundaries on age and nutrition I'm curious to see what happens and perhaps dispel myths . Specifically on my farm I have a feeder per 60 acres feeding from February thru August. That on top of about 130 acres of year round food plots and intensively managed woodlands. Now I'm exploring regenerative grazing practices to enhance soil microbiology...all to see impact on deer herd. We feed a custom feed I designed complete with pre and pro biotics, anti parasitic herbs, high fat/fiber @18% protein

On the ranch I have a feeder per 150 acres most with a water trough in conjunction. We also supplement cotton seed from February thru August. That provides two feeders per feed station assuring all can get a bite in spite of pecking order and provides a high fat/protein supplement great for rut recovery.We experiment with roller chopping brush as well as root plowing in strategic areas.

All of this as a kinda anecdotal experiment because I'm curious , like to explore ideas and absolutely love the whitetail deer. I think they rather like it too.

 

[T-Max]

Doesn’t natural dispersion make culling a losing proposition? Aren’t the offspring of the best bucks naturally drawn to wander away from their mothers and sisters? I thought that was nature’s way to prevent inbreeding. Assuming that is the case, genetics are far too “mobile” to be manipulated in a free-range environment aren’t they? I don’t think our genetics stay home as much as we think they do.


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[Bill Loser]

To think we have any control whatsoever on wild deer genetics is foolish at best. To think that doe genetics don't have as much probably more impact than the bucks is equally as foolish.
The reason those deer farmers are able to grow huge deer is not because they take big bucks and breed them with any old doe, nope they take the best does with the best genetics and breed with bucks with the best genetics. Then they feed the hell out of em.
I do agree that nutrition can and does have a great impact on herd quality.

 

[Booner21]

Except if the 10 pointers pass on more of their genes then the next generation will have genetics for larger antlers. It may be small but there is 100 percent chance what I say is true.

Go to any high fence and you will see breeding for larger antlers is very real. Even large open areas like baker show this. It’s not just he feeds them well. He watches and keeps large bucks in the population, and the more they pass on their genes the larger the next generation has the potential to be.

Only issue is that you can’t tell what offspring antler traits a bucks young will have based on its rack sizes. There is a pretty detailed podcast on deer university explaining it related to a deers breeding value.


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[omicron1792]

To think we have any control whatsoever on wild deer genetics is foolish at best. To think that doe genetics don't have as much probably more impact than the bucks is equally as foolish.
The reason those deer farmers are able to grow huge deer is not because they take big bucks and breed them with any old doe, nope they take the best does with the best genetics and breed with bucks with the best genetics. Then they feed the hell out of em.
I do agree that nutrition can and does have a great impact on herd quality.

Where did anyone say doe genetics don’t matter? I said you can’t tell when hunting which doe to shoot based on genetics.

Again Bill, I have been to breeders on a doe buying trip.



You throw a lot of words like foolish around without even reading the thread. Par for the course.

 

[omicron1792]

Only issue is that you can’t tell what offspring antler traits a bucks young will have based on its rack sizes. There is a pretty detailed podcast on deer university explaining it related to a deers breeding value.


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I would say you can’t tell completely for sure. But short men produce tall sons sometimes. 90% of the time they don’t.

 

[Bill Loser]

Problem there is farmer you don’t always know with the doe, can look at buck and tell.

My understanding it’s nutrition of the doe that affects the rack, not as much their genes. I’d so I’d like to know where I’m wrong.

Um.... It's kinda exactly what you said...