I bought some of SLN's seedling apples about 6 years ago. Those trees are now about 14 ft. tall, but haven't produced any fruit yet. They don't all look the same - structure-wise - but they've all grown really well. I probably won't see fruit for another couple years, but they'll be big, full-sized trees. 2 of them have really good branch angles on their own, with no training.