Spraying clethodim on frost seeded clover

[H80Hunter]

Hey guys,

I have a small area that I frost seeded this spring with white/red clover. Got good germination and it’s coming along nice. That said, I frost seeded it into an area with a lot of warm season grass competition. I’m not sure what type of grass but it greens up really late (June?) grows really fast, and browns up by about September(?). Anyway, right now there’s not much grass and the residue from last fall was great “thatch.” But once it comes on it comes on quick. I was thinking I could spray clethodim once the grass starts growing but I don’t want to kill the young clover.

—Any risk spraying clethodim in like Mid-June on clover that was frost seeded this year?
—Do I need a surfactant when I spray clethodim? I assume I DONT want to use crop oil on the new clover? I usually mix a few drops of dish soap in when I spray gly. Would that work?

 

[Bill]

By mid June you will be good. Try to ID the grass to be sure cleth will kill it.

yes Cleth calls for crop oil. I don’t like to use it because I always burn my clover. Doesn’t kill it, but it burns it. I use a few good squirts of dawn dish detergent instead. Some guys complain that it takes forever to rinse the tank of soap suds. But if you have running water that’s not an issue.

 

[yoderjac]

Cleth is fine on clover. It does not need to be well established. I would consider using non-ionic surfactant rather than crop oil on young clover like that. While the cleth won't hurt the young clover, crop oil may.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[TreeDaddy]

Clethodim label calls for surfactant/crop oil

I use surfactant with clethodim alone or when mixed with Thunder(imazethapyr) for clover weed control

I reserve crop oil for "burn down" scenario

bill

 

[DJN]

I used clethodim with a non-ionic surfactant 3-4 weeks ago on a plot that was half established clover and half large bare areas that I had frost seeded clover in February. No issues on either. Grass really died out nicely last week. I had the same thought as Jack, as far as not wanting to use crop oil for fear of really scorching the young clover.

 

[H80Hunter]

Can you guys clarify something else for me:

If the label says 1 pint mixed with 20 gallons for an acre, and I’m spraying a half acre — OBVIOUSLY I need half a pint. But do I mix that with only 10 gallons? Or does it not matter as long as I deliver that half pint uniformly over the plot? I think the more water the easier it would be to cover but I’m not sure how much dilution matters.

 

[yoderjac]

Can you guys clarify something else for me:

If the label says 1 pint mixed with 20 gallons for an acre, and I’m spraying a half acre — OBVIOUSLY I need half a pint. But do I mix that with only 10 gallons? Or does it not matter as long as I deliver that half pint uniformly over the plot? I think the more water the easier it would be to cover but I’m not sure how much dilution matters.

I don't recall the label specifying the amount of water last I used it. Are you sure you are using Clethodim? Label typically says 6-16 oz with 1% v/v for the surfactant. The key is to calibrate your sprayer. Most herbicides are labeled in product per acre. The water is just a carrier. You need enough water so that you get an even distribution of product. Typically that is not an issue with most sprayers.

There are threads on sprayer calibration techniques. You need to know how much fluid your sprayer puts out to cover an acre. So, the ratio between product and water is really less important than the amount of product put out when you cover an acre.

Given the 6-16 oz 1% v/v, here is what you would use for 1/2 acre:

Let X= the amount of water in gallons your sprayer puts out in 1 acre at a the fixed pressure and tractor speed you calibrated it at.

3-8 oz of Clethodim, 1/2 of X gal of water, and 1/2% of X in Crop Oil (if you are using crop oil as your surfactant).

There are all kinds of product names for Clethodim. I've used many different generic versions. I just randomly grabbed a label for reference, but all generics I've used have similar labeling: https://secureservercdn.net/198.71..../uploads/2020/02/Clethodim-2EC-Spec-Label.pdf

Thanks,

Jack

 

[H80Hunter]

I have a pint of WI arrest max, I know I know.

So basically I’m ok to do 8 ounces of arrest, plus my surfactant in my 26 gallon sprayer and spray the whole field uniformly?

 

[yoderjac]

I have a pint of WI arrest max, I know I know.

So basically I’m ok to do 8 ounces of arrest, plus my surfactant in my 26 gallon sprayer and spray the whole field uniformly?

Depends on your weeds and your sprayer calibration. The 6-16 oz/ac is to provide flexibility as some grasses may be harder to kill than others. If, after calibrating your sprayer, you find out it puts out 52 gals/ac then 26 gal is correct.

If you don't know how much liquid your sprayer puts out per acre, then it will be hard to spray it evenly. Lets say your sprayer puts out 40 gal per acre or 20 gal per 1/2 acre. If you use 26 gal of water in your sprayer, you will have 6 gal left in the sprayer after you have evenly covered the field. So, you will have applied a lighter than intended amount of Cleth on a per acre basis. You can't evenly distribute that other 6 gal over the field.

This is just an example, but you get the idea. Sprayer calibration is important in delivering the amount of chemical you intend.

Because there is quite a bit of flexibility in how much Cleth should be applied depending on weed specifics, you may be OK depending on what your sprayer actually puts out because while you may not put out what you intended, you may still be in the range.

Tractor driven boom type sprayers are going to give you the most accurate application of chemicals. Boomless ATV sprayers are gong to be less accurate. The horizontal (left/right) application and droplet size is less well defined with a boomless sprayer and it is harder to drive an ATV at a constant speed so the vertical (front/back) application is less even.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[H80Hunter]

Ok I get it. I was planning to fill up 26 gallons with the 8 ounces of arrest, then cover the field in one pass using ABOUT half of the tank. I know how much spray time I have with a full tank. Then adjust for a second pass to empty the tank. It’s a small plot.

 

[H80Hunter]

By mid June you will be good. Try to ID the grass to be sure cleth will kill it.

yes Cleth calls for crop oil. I don’t like to use it because I always burn my clover. Doesn’t kill it, but it burns it. I use a few good squirts of dawn dish detergent instead. Some guys complain that it takes forever to rinse the tank of soap suds. But if you have running water that’s not an issue.

this is what it looks like now... mats down easy. My guess is either giant foxtail or yellow foxtail maybe? I know this isn’t a great pic but foxtail looks like the only WSG it could be?

 

[H80Hunter]

Couple more pics in the dead state. Made good thatch to frost seed into though!

 

[Bill]

Couple more pics in the dead state. Made good thatch to frost seed into though!

yep that’s foxtail. Cleth will smoke it

 

[Hoytvectrix]

For the record, the foxtail is an annual. Unless new foxtail seedlings have emerged, clethodim will have no effect on it. I sprayed my clover and alfalfa plots in Northern Missouri three weeks ago. The perennial grasses were checking out after a week or so. I will likely follow-up with a second application in another week or so after the surviving grasses survived and have begun to green-up.

 

[H80Hunter]

Yeah it usually doesn’t show up until a little later in the year but I figured frost seeding And then later top seeding and then not disturbing the soil might keep it down. If it emerges I’ll spray it.

 

[H80Hunter]

Hey guys, let’s come back to this:

So, Slay also appears to control foxtail plus a bunch of other broadleaf weeds. I don’t have a huge problem with weeds but there are some coming up alongside the clover. Not enough right now to worry about but I’m wondering if I should spray the clethodim if/when the foxtail comes on or if I should spray slay/imox/raptor instead which seems like it would control the foxtail PLUS some of the broadleaves? Is slay safe on March frost seeded clover? It says not to spray on emerging clover seedlings, not sure what exactly to interpret that as?

Another option is clethodim for the foxtail when it comes on and slay NEXT year when the clover is stronger.

 

[H80Hunter]

Bump

 

[yoderjac]

First, I'm an advocate of weed tolerance. Frost seeding lends itself to more weeds than does fall planting of perennial clover with a WR nurse crop. Many broadleaf weeds are better deer food than the crops we plant. A weed is simply a plant growing where you don't want it. Anything growing other than what a farmer planted in the field is a weed to a farmer as it reduces his yield and profit. That is not tree to folks planting for deer. Having said that, some weeds are problematic and need to be addressed.

So, next time, start your plot in the fall with a nurse crop and save frost seeding clover to hit any bare spots in your fall plant. The combination of WR and timely spring mowing to release the clover will let you start with a cleaner plot.

But, you are where you are. So, my advice would be to use Cleth to address the foxtail and not try to kill other broadleaf plants unless you have a specific one that is problematic. The younger the foxtail the more susceptible to Cleth it will be. I've tried the general herbicide approach on clover and found that it was costly and did not improve things from a deer perspective at all. Depending on location, weeds can also have a protective effect on clover during the hot summer months. My fields now look so bad in the summer that from a distance you would not even suspect there was clover in them. Come fall, just before our season, I'll mow them. The rain and cool nights favor the clover and it bounces back strong. Deer use my "dirty" plots just as much as when I had a monoculture of clover.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[H80Hunter]

Makes 100% sense to me! Thanks.

 

[cspot]

I have used Imox (Generic form of Raptor) with very good results.