Plowing/Disking in the Fall

We’ve been failing pretty miserably at TnM for five plus years. Perhaps we’re doing what is best for the soil “long term.” But choosing to have an attractive food plot is already sub-optimal with respect to soil health, compared to other different land use strategies. How much worse would i be offending if I used some tillage? I know my old man is getting impatient. “Long term” isn’t too much fun, from where I’m sitting; and I imagine the farmers in the OP feel much the same.

I don't think you would be offending anything. But don't go from T&M to a 2-bottom plow. Take it a step at a time. I don't know enough about your soils, but I'd start by using a tiller and holding it so high on the hitch that you only hit the top inch. Or, if you have a disk, straighten the angle to make it less aggressive and make a single pass. Occasional soil disturbance is not necessarily a bad thing, but start shallow and infrequent.

We all don't have the same soils and T&M is tougher some places than others. Here are some thoughts:
1) Chose crops that T&M well (WR is a good example and so is PTT)
2) Let nature tell you when to plant. Don't plant without good rain on the horizon.
3) Increase your seeding rates a bit. WR is cheap.
4) If you are already doing all of these, try min-till.

Thanks,

Jack
 
I don't think you would be offending anything. But don't go from T&M to a 2-bottom plow. Take it a step at a time. I don't know enough about your soils, but I'd start by using a tiller and holding it so high on the hitch that you only hit the top inch. Or, if you have a disk, straighten the angle to make it less aggressive and make a single pass. Occasional soil disturbance is not necessarily a bad thing, but start shallow and infrequent.

We all don't have the same soils and T&M is tougher some places than others. Here are some thoughts:
1) Chose crops that T&M well (WR is a good example and so is PTT)
2) Let nature tell you when to plant. Don't plant without good rain on the horizon.
3) Increase your seeding rates a bit. WR is cheap.
4) If you are already doing all of these, try min-till.

Thanks,

Jack
We’re doing all but #4.
 
We’re doing all but #4.

What has your plantings consisted of over this time period. Is it a rotation issue? Soil samples? how are you judging your plots are failing miserably?
 
I think I may have posted this before, but I couldn't find it, but why do many farmers plow and or disk their fields in the fall and leave the dirt exposed all winter?

VV

I am willing to bet the OP now understands that asking a simple question here will be beat to death with intellectual superiority and never actually answered. :emoji_astonished::emoji_thinking:
 
What has your plantings consisted of over this time period. Is it a rotation issue? Soil samples? how are you judging your plots are failing miserably?

I'm wondering the same thing about a soil sample? Also, are you putting up an exclusion cage to show you how much impact you're getting from browsing?

What kind of summer vegetation are you throwing your seed into for a fall planting Turkish?
 
I am willing to bet the OP now understands that asking a simple question here will be beat to death with intellectual superiority and never actually answered. :emoji_astonished::emoji_thinking:

The 1st few responses answered it quite well.
 
Just a little past experience. I am no longer a farmer, I quit back in the early 90’s. When I farmed I was close to the area ST is from, southern MN. Back then we just started to experiment with cover crops. We would plant winter wheat or oats into our soybean fields, corn never came out early enough to get anything growing to matter before winter came, and in the spring once the ground thawed and dried out, we were back in it planting. We always rotated crops, so the fields that had soybeans in it, would have green manure in it the next spring to plant corn into.

The rotation went like this. Plant soybeans, combine soybeans, disc soybean field, plant oats/winter wheat in the fall, then in the spring spray, and just plant the corn into the green 3 inch high cover crop. Corn fields always got plowed under, even though chisel plowing was becoming the popular thing, we didn’t have the equipment to do it, and we new we were on our way out soon, so we didn’t want to change things up much.

Planting a cover crop into a corn field just wasn’t possible for us then, by the time we combined, the ground was pretty much frozen, and there would be no way to get the seed in in the spring time without burying your equipment, prior to needing to plant your cash crop.

Now my land is even further to the north, and less time for cover crops to make sense.

I guess my point in all of this is, what works for some people, won’t work for others, whether that be demographics, regional, soil conditions, (hard clay), or in our case spending a lot of money on new equipment, when money isn’t there. Hard to spend several thousand on new theories, when you are barely getting buy now, when the old way is working, and you are able to make a small profit.

To the original posters question, black dirt over winter isn’t the best thing for your soil, but in my area, if you don’t work up the soil in the fall, you may not get enough time to do so in the spring, to still have time to get your seed in
 
In my area (the area that 4wanderingeyes mentions) there are a lot of dairy farms. Most of these farmers start chopping their corn for silage around Sept 1-10. In this case there is time to plant a cover crop and some do but many dont. In the case of cash cropping like mentioned it changes things. Cover crops can be flown on or planted with specialty equipment into standing corn but again it has to make a positive impact in the farmers bank account or it isn't going to get done. I think the cover would be worth the expense but with the amount of stress the farmers have been under the past 4-5 years I fully understand them not taking the risk with the low profits they are seeing.
 
I don't remember exactly, but I believe Gabe Brown uses hairy vetch as a cover crop for corn, broadcast at the same time his corn is drilled. It won't provide the living roots in the soil over winter like wheat or rye would, but will still be beneficial.
 
Nobody of any consequence is going to change until they understand the why behind any of this. I don't blame farmers for not knowing, it's been a closely guarded secret among the farm science community. Donated buildings and scholarships are going to dry up quickly if universities start teaching the physics and biology of soils and plants.

Nobody has connected the dots in a digestible format to educate anyone. You also cannot just flip a switch and make the conversion either. Soils that are heavily sprayed, fertilized, and tilled are basically dead and will take time to get revived. That conversion time would bankrupt a farmer.
 
Nobody has connected the dots in a digestible format to educate anyone. You also cannot just flip a switch and make the conversion either. Soils that are heavily sprayed, fertilized, and tilled are basically dead and will take time to get revived. That conversion time would bankrupt a farmer.

We’re not farmers. And our ears are open. Well mine are. And I’m not farmer.
 
We’re not farmers. And our ears are open. Well mine are. And I’m not farmer.
Learn to manage for bugs, fungi, carbon, water, and diversity, and you'll nail it. I picked it up by asking questions and doing a ton of reading.

Why does that plant grow there?
How does native stuff grow without it ever being fertilized or sprayed?
What enables natural never-fertilized forages to dwarf heavily-fertilized ag crops in brix readings?
Why did this weed show up?
Why does a field that got an inch of rain flood, and the pasture next to it can take an foot and not flood?
Why don't natural areas die during a drought like farmed areas?
 
Learn to manage for bugs, fungi, carbon, water, and diversity, and you'll nail it. I picked it up by asking questions and doing a ton of reading.

Why does that plant grow there?
How does native stuff grow without it ever being fertilized or sprayed?
What enables natural never-fertilized forages to dwarf heavily-fertilized ag crops in brix readings?
Why did this weed show up?
Why does a field that got an inch of rain flood, and the pasture next to it can take an foot and not flood?
Why don't natural areas die during a drought like farmed areas?

What did you read to find the answers?

bill
 
A handful of books on allelopathy. Some articles on C:N ratios. Lots of info on the role of arbuscular mychorizal fungi, what is soil flocculation, the carbon cycle, how tillage impacts hydrology, interactions of plant exudates on turning rock into soluble fertilizer, what weeds tell us, and much more.
 
A handful of books on allelopathy. Some articles on C:N ratios. Lots of info on the role of arbuscular mychorizal fungi, what is soil flocculation, the carbon cycle, how tillage impacts hydrology, interactions of plant exudates on turning rock into soluble fertilizer, what weeds tell us, and much more.
I'll get back to you on this. Now where did I put my dictionary??? :-) You sound like a man after my own heart.
 
Every time I read through this I think of what my Grandpa called our "Sunday ground". It was too wet to work Saturday and to dry to work Monday... sometimes you just have to work it when you can.

Another thing I remember is the fallow fields. Long ago it was pretty common practice to let a field go fallow and grow up in weeds during the off season. The old timer's didn't call it cover cropping... but a wide diversity of weeds growing in the off season mined minerals, replaced organic matter, had a vast array of roots, produced flowers and seeds (which supported pollinators and ecosystem species), and allowed the ground to absorb water instead of create runoff and erosion, and was free. I can honestly say that from my perspective we are coming full circle, and that the old timer's had something figured out.
 
Learn to manage for bugs, fungi, carbon, water, and diversity, and you'll nail it. I picked it up by asking questions and doing a ton of reading.

Why does that plant grow there?
How does native stuff grow without it ever being fertilized or sprayed?
What enables natural never-fertilized forages to dwarf heavily-fertilized ag crops in brix readings?
Why did this weed show up?
Why does a field that got an inch of rain flood, and the pasture next to it can take an foot and not flood?
Why don't natural areas die during a drought like farmed areas?

Sincerely asking here, so with all this knowledge you've gained, what would your method be for running a cash grain farm in MN, or Northern IL for that matter? I enjoy learning, and sometimes try new things.
 
Learn to manage for bugs, fungi, carbon, water, and diversity, and you'll nail it. I picked it up by asking questions and doing a ton of reading.

Why does that plant grow there?
How does native stuff grow without it ever being fertilized or sprayed?
What enables natural never-fertilized forages to dwarf heavily-fertilized ag crops in brix readings?
Why did this weed show up?
Why does a field that got an inch of rain flood, and the pasture next to it can take an foot and not flood?
Why don't natural areas die during a drought like farmed areas?


Thank you.
Lots of homework for the winter.
 
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