Persimmon Questions

[Brush farmer]

I don't how it's possible, but it appears that every persimmon tree on the farm is a male. I've got a location in mind to put some grafted females that I'll be prepping over the summer. Is there a guideline on how far from the pollinator a female can be to still produce fruit? Do you have any other general persimmon advice? Thanks-

 

[buckdeer1]

Is there anyway to check for males and females when trees are a few years old

 

[yoderjac]

They are probably not all male, but more than 50% on my farm are male. There is no easy way to tell sex until they are mature enough to flower but it doesn't really matter. You can easily convert male persimmons to fruiting female trees: http://www.habitat-talk.com/index.php?threads/sex-change-operation-transfered-from-qdma-forum.5547/

This is by far the best bang for the buck I have on any tree project. You can buy scions very inexpensively from orchards like Englands. Cliff is a good source. These will be named varieties with known characteristics. By trading scions with other persimmon guys, my goal is to have trees dropping persimmons from August through February. Named varieties tend to drop earlier than many native trees. Bark grafting persimmons is very low cost and when you use trees in the 1" - 5" class, you can get the first few persimmons in the third leaf after grafting. Compare that to planting trees which can take 8-10 years or more to produce fruit.

Persimmons are primarily insect pollinated, not wind pollinated. You don't need to worry at all about distance between male and female trees on the same farm.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[Brush farmer]

Thanks for the replys guys. The trees I believe are males are fairly mature. The lowest branch in most of them is 16' off the ground. I haven't found any that are small enough for grafting. The nearest one to where I'd like to plant some is a couple hundred yards away.
I've noted their locations to check for fruit once it's large enough to seen from the ground. I didn't see any last year, but it may have been a bad year because some known females on another local farm didn't make much fruit.
Yoderjac I'd like to set up a lengthy drop period like you suggest. Our local wild variety seems to drop all fruit shortly after first frost. I plan on contacting England's after I've had a chance to prep the site and get a better idea on how many I'll have room to plant.

 

[yoderjac]

100 yards is not an issue. If you have a large male tree in the open, cut it down when it is dormant. The following spring, the root system will start putting up root suckers. Find a good one as your target tree. Keep a few others as that large root system will need to be fed, but keep the rest pruned. The sprouts that are left should grow like mad from that large root system. It wont take long for them to get to good bark grafting diameter. Graft these. Likely several will take, but you will only keep one. Over time watch them, keep the best and as they grow and can accept more energy from the root system, remove the others.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[Brush farmer]

I like that idea. I'll keep that in mind as I scout the trees. I'll probably have to cage off an area to see any sprouts. Our deer would devour them before I saw any sign of them.

 

[yoderjac]

I guess things vary with region, but you must have very high deer densities or little food. Most seedlings I plant will get browsed heavily by deer if not protected, but pawpaw and persimmon are exceptions. I don't get much browsing on either of these.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[Brush farmer]

We have a high deer density here. I've had people ask me if deer would eat a particular plant. I always tell them they'll eat what they like but will try anything to see if they like it. A couple bites off a sprout may be enough to set it back to the point of no return. Soft new growth on anything is a prime target even on species like walnut that you wouldn't think could be palatable to them.
All of this is very dependent on what other food is available at the time. I've got some nice looking clover patches currently that the deer are ignoring to go eat blackberry sprouts around the edges of the plots.

 

[yoderjac]

Wow...I always complain about having to protect chestnuts, filberts, and such when planted. I guess things could be worse!

 

[Corbin.clay]

We have a high deer density here. I've had people ask me if deer would eat a particular plant. I always tell them they'll eat what they like but will try anything to see if they like it. A couple bites off a sprout may be enough to set it back to the point of no return. Soft new growth on anything is a prime target even on species like walnut that you wouldn't think could be palatable to them.
All of this is very dependent on what other food is available at the time. I've got some nice looking clover patches currently that the deer are ignoring to go eat blackberry sprouts around the edges of the plots.

I had the same issue a few weeks back when the blackberries came to life this spring. The new sprouts were chewed to nubs but less and less browse on my durana clover that was full and green for weeks.

 

[Brush farmer]

Maybe blackberry sprouts are tastier that I imagined. The clover patch near the house is a good gauge on what food sources are available. If the deer aren't coming out to feed on the clover, there is something they'd rather have in the woods. It's just a matter of figuring out what they are switching over to when they are suddenly absent in the evenings. I can tell to the day when the first paw paws start to drop in the fall.

 

[yoderjac]

Maybe blackberry sprouts are tastier that I imagined. The clover patch near the house is a good gauge on what food sources are available. If the deer aren't coming out to feed on the clover, there is something they'd rather have in the woods. It's just a matter of figuring out what they are switching over to when they are suddenly absent in the evenings. I can tell to the day when the first paw paws start to drop in the fall.

Keep in mind that food quality is only one factor in the algorithm that executes in the brain of a deer. Other factors include safety and sex. One example is what happens when I plant soybeans in the spring. If the soil warms up enough that I can plant early, does will ignore the beans while they are being established even though they are by far the best food around. The reason is that they are pregnant and getting ready to drop fawn. They stay in heavy cover and can even be somewhat territorial at this time. In this vulnerable state, they are reluctant to come in the open for quality food if they have lower quality food in cover. Once the fawns are on the ground and following mom around, they bring them to the beans. In good years, my beans are established enough to handle the browse pressure by then. If weather causes me to wait to plant, I have a very hard time establishing beans.

So, when they leave a quality food source, it may be for a better food source or it may be that security is a factor as well.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[TreeDaddy]

Back to persimmon questions.......

Jack,

How do you decide which tree in the field that you are going to graft female scion to?

Do you wait 6 years to determine sex of tree( to insure that its male) or make your choice on other factors(site of recipient tree,diameter,etc)

thanks,

bill

 

[yoderjac]

I don't wait. My native field grown persimmons can easily take 10 years to produce. When I find a persimmon that hits about 1" in diameter I graft it to female. Keep in mind my strategy. I'm trying to use persimmons as part of a permaculture for feeding deer across a broad time frame. So, if I can cut down a 1" tree and see my first persimmons in the third leaf (with known drop times as well), I get more persimmons sooner and dropping when I want them. If I have a native tree that is bearing good fruit, I'll keep it, otherwise I graft. Tree diameter is a factor. I've had success with trees up to about 5" in diameter, but they are a lot of work. You create a pretty large wound on a tree that big and the root system really wants to recover. You get a lot of water sprouts below the graft for several years than need to be removed and it also stimulates root suckers. With smaller trees, I graft 1 or 2 scions and down select to 1 when it goes dormant the first year. With a large diameter tree, I'll graft 4 or 5 scions and down select to 3 the first winter and down select to 1 the second winter. Trees in the 1" to 3" class are no problem. I've grafted smaller trees, but my success rate is lower and not worth my time. This gives the root system energy some place to go besides suckers and water sprouts. If my objective were attraction to a specific location at a specific time, my approach may be different.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[Persimman]

Out of nearly 100 wild persimmon trees on the 300 acres I hunt, I have only confirmed ... 7 females, with maybe 20 trees that aren't mature or healthy enough to bloom yet. Since those young trees are near large males, probably male root sprouts. The trees are way too tall for me to see blooms. Many are over 10" diameter. I check the ground after a spring storm to see the dropped blossoms. In a grove of trees, I can't tell which tree dropped which blooms, but if I find any female blossoms it's a good sign. That's one way to check before waiting for fall.
I was really disappointed that natural distribution is not near 50/50.

 

[yoderjac]

I found the same thing on my place. I probably have 10 non-producing trees for every productive tree. I'd try some binoculars to look for blooms in the taller persimmons.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[Brush farmer]

I think the mother to my trees were on the neighboring farm before they were cleared as I'm not aware of a single female on the place. Luck of the draw was just that I got mostly males.
Has anyone noticed there seems to be a difference in growth form among the sexes in persimmons? It may just be coincidence in the local trees that I pay more attention to, but it seems that the males are more likely to be gun barrel straight and tall with little branching until nearer the top of the tree. All the Females here tend to reach their branches wider and start closer to the ground and sometimes have more irregular / twisting trunks.

 

[yoderjac]

I hadn't really noticed growth characteristics related to sex, but the nice thing about persimmons is that having lots of males is not a problem. I just graft mine over to female and you can see the first few persimmons in the third leaf!

Thanks,

Jack

 

[Brush farmer]

I'm dying to try the sprout/graft method you suggested. I'm in scouting mode for candidate trees now. I've learned to take my gps with me even on short missions. I always see something that I think I'll remember later and then can't when it's time to do something with it.
You'd think I'd know each tree like a family member by now but I constantly find things I never noticed before. I even found a nice sized wild crabapple I didn't know I had while cleaning up dead ash trees this past weekend.