Opinions from corn and bean plottters.

[WTNUT]

Here is my situation of a 1,200 acre farm that is 80 percent timber and 20 percent fields. Historically the farm had been plotted with corn and clovers. I am not far enough south to make summer my "stress period". To maximize antler growth my deer need winter food sources. For the last two years I have not supplemented their diet with corn via gravity feeders and have not planted corn or beans. There has been a 15% decline in mature buck antler size and similar decline in weight. Further, the properties surrounding me have changed hands. There are really only three property owners surrounding me. 2/3 of them have started to bait heavily with corn (legal in our state). The absence of corn, beans and supplemental feed on me has drawn a fair number of deer off my property.

In 2018, I have committed to start providing supplemental feed (probably primarily corn with some other things) starting now actually.

The big issue for me is do I plant all corn or all beans this year. I really need to do all and not a mix. If I mix, the beans get hit too hard and really the same for the corn. The beans will give them extra boost early in the summer, but they ignore beans October through mid December for the most part. If I get them planted early I can broadcast brassicas in the beans, but sometimes that does not work because this is bottom land and you can't plant it early enough to get the beans to mature in time to plant brassicas.

The corn provides nothing in the summer, but by mid September or the first of October they have plenty of food. While you can hunt the bean fields, the corn fields provide great cover and at times really nice bucks get in the corn and stay in the corn!

So what do you think?


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[yoderjac]

What do the 15% decline numbers refer to? Your harvest data? Harvest data for the whole surrounding area (5,000+ acres)? The region? Does it refer to all bucks? Is it stratified by age class? If it is only from your property, do you harvest enough bucks to have statistical significance?

The reason I ask these questions is because it is important to first determine if you really have a nutrition problem or simply an attraction/holding problem, or even an age problem. Probably the first thing I would look at is timber management since 80% of your land is in timber. Timber management can address both nutrition and attraction.

When I click your picture I don't see the zone or location. That would be helpful to know to address the corn/beans question if it really comes to that.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[Nova]

I guess if you are looking for winter food sources corn is king in the winter. I like to do both beans and corn with beans being a better draw on our farm, but if they ignore beans on your farm from October on, then corn is your answer.

 

[FarmerDan]

OK. Let's go with the assumption that your problem is the result of a nutrient deficiency. But, first let me say I greatly admire all the habitat work you've done and your willingness to share it! Sometimes we get too close to our work and don't see the obvious. That's what's great about forums like this one! Maybe when this is over you'll go back, revisit, and re-evaluate the causes you list.

Bucks need lots of protein at the right time to realize full antler growth potential. That's the stress period and it mostly occurs at the sametime throughout the latitudes. What are the sources of protein supply in your management area? Usually, we assume there's not enough and take about to grow plants to supply a potential shortfall. Between corn and soybeans the answer is clear. Soybeans. But, again, I'd recommend another look at the situation to really understand what, if anything, has changed to cause what you perceive to be a problem. Sometimes Murphy and Random show up at the sametime.

 

[yoderjac]

Just one more consideration is disease. When deer are dealing with disease, that stress can have a significant impact on development. Again, not knowing your area, I don't know what diseases may impact you. In my general area (thankfully not my farm yet) EHD is a common cyclic disease. It has both acute and chronic impacts on deer. You mention that baiting is legal in your state. Point source attractants like bait piles can increase the spread of disease.

Again, I'm still scratching my head as to whether nutrition is really the issue given all the work you've done. It could be, but I don't see a strong case for it yet.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[Peplin Creek]

This is purely a guess. So seriously take this with a grain of salt. I tend to find better than average bucks around corn fields and bean fields, so I do think mature deer tend to gravitate towards them and from a pure attraction stand point, it can’t be beat. For some reason, my grain plots and clover plots get hit more by doe than bucks. It’s possible that mature bucks are seeking the corn and beans and overtime have developed another area off your property to get that preferred food source.

Is the quality just not there, because the preferred buck forage is missing and causing inferior deer (smaller racks/bodied deer) to seek newer ground and take up residency on your property because of dominance? Or is it strictly a nutrition problem. Nutrition problem to me seems less likely. 1200 acres has a lot of places for deer to hide and I would imagine quality bucks still exsist.

Are you noticing that the big ones are still around during rut? That to me would be a good indication that the nutrition is fine and mostly some other factor is envolved. Most likely the preferred food source isn’t available.

Last, I think something that isn’t talked about enough is buck dispersal. Since 80% of most bucks that end up on a property come from 3 - 8 miles away when they are 1 years old, it’s possible that factors outside of your control have caused the decrease in size. Some bucks will only ever be 120 inch buck regardless or nutrition and age. So passing on deer based off age is a great management tool but It can sometimes back fire though, if your goal is truly trying to raise 150+ inches or bigger. bucks that are 1 1/2 and aren’t sporting quality racks should be harvested.

There are so many factors, it’s hard to pinpoint a solution. You know your property the best. What does your gut tell you? Go with it.

 

[Wild Thing]

This is purely a guess. So seriously take this with a grain of salt.

Last, I think something that isn’t talked about enough is buck dispersal. Since 80% of most bucks that end up on a property come from 3 - 8 miles away when they are 1 years old, it’s possible that factors outside of your control have caused the decrease in size. Some bucks will only ever be 120 inch buck regardless or nutrition and age. So passing on deer based off age is a great management tool but It can sometimes back fire though, if your goal is truly trying to raise 150+ inches or bigger. bucks that are 1 1/2 and aren’t sporting quality racks should be harvested.

There are so many factors, it’s hard to pinpoint a solution. You know your property the best. What does your gut tell you? Go with it.

Sorry Peplin Creek but I have to completely disagree with your statement that yearling bucks that aren't sporting quality racks should be harvested. Study after study has disproved your theory. In fact, most of the deer "Guru's" will say that culling deer for genetic improvement is next to impossible in a wild free ranging herd. Many a yearling spike horn has grown into a very nice buck by age 3 or 4 if given the chance and proper nutrition.

You also acknowledge that due to the buck dispersal phenomenon the majority of the bucks on your farm were born several miles away. This is precisely why you can't improve genetics by culling. Perhaps those yearling bucks did not have adequate nutrition as fawns.

Give them a chance. You have the most influence over age (trigger control).....some influence over nutrition....and virtually no influence over genetics. Do yourself and your deer herd a favor and forget about culling yearling bucks.

 

[kfab12]

QDMA has a great article on culling. Check it out....

https://www.qdma.com/pumba-yet-another-inferior-buck-that-wasnt/

 

[bbcoach]

WTNUT, I think we are all confused. Where are you located? You say 15% decline, how are you measuring this? You say you can't hold deer but you have 240 acres of plantable ground? And with 240 acres of food, how can the deer eat that much? To maximize antler growth, they need protein and minerals during the antler growing months, April- September plus genetics. Give us some more details.

 

[Mortenson]

Really not an option to go 120 of corn and beans each? If they can wipe out than many acres, it seems like the herd needs some major thinning.

 

[Bill]

Beans, beans, beans. IMHO

The deer you want to shoot are not eating in November anyway. By December they will be back in the beans. I only find a short 3 weekish window where bean use drops. It's in the yellow stage. In November the does use them less because thier easy harassment targets in any open field.

 

[j-bird]

I think you have 2 issues. Planting beans OR corn will only resolve one of the issues and still leave you unhappy. Summer may not be your "stress period" - but you can;t ignore summer protein needs to maximize deer development. Fall/winter may be when you struggle to hold deer (bucks), but I think 95% of us all suffer from that as well.....that is simply the roaming nature of the breeding season.

Plant beans - you give the deer the chance to develop, but as you claim to then loose them to neighbors in the fall/winter.
Plant corn - the deer don't develop as much, but they stay at "home".

If 1/2 beans won't survive the deer pressure, maybe plant forage variety beans. Or plant a earlier maturity variety that allows you to over seed a brassica/cereal grain mix. Beans are far easier to grow in my opinion. If you don't like big blocks of corn because they can house deer - then plant the corn in strips which will still feed the deer, but will be less likely to allow them to get in there and stay there. Plant both as round-up ready so spraying is easy and use those strips of corn as screens. Planting both may not be handy, but I think it helps you address both conditions. I may not allow you to reach maximum results with both conditions, but nothing is free.

I also think you may have some other things going on with neighbors - if they are baiting they may or may not be doing other habitat work and if not, that may be part of the decline you are seeing. It takes a village as they say. Even with nearly 2 square miles.....you alone are not feeding all those deer. You may also be dealing with different land use issues as well. If you are hunting your land hard in the early season or educating the deer you may be pushing those deer to neighbors that don't hunt until gun season. These are all just possibilities. Also realize that your property is only going to house so many mature bucks. As your habitat improves your going to suck in many young bucks but eventually as those deer mature they are going to be pushed out and your going to loose them to the neighbors and beyond.

 

[JFK52]

Soy beans. You might consider planting some Eagle RR forage soy beans. The deer can eat the leaves of these beans instead of the ag beans. You will get better pod production from your ag beans. Eagle beans are expensive but think about putting them around the edges of your ag bean fields as the deer eat from the outside in. I had good luck with RR Eagle forage beans this season. They allowed my ag beans to produce a lot more pods. The ag beans are an over winter food source for the deer here in Central Wisconsin so it is important that they have as many pods for the deer to eat as possible. The Eagles lasted until the first hard frost which was in late October this year. I will be increasing my plots of Eagle northern managers mix beans this year.

 

[Peplin Creek]

Sorry Peplin Creek but I have to completely disagree with your statement that yearling bucks that aren't sporting quality racks should be harvested. Study after study has disproved your theory. In fact, most of the deer "Guru's" will say that culling deer for genetic improvement is next to impossible in a wild free ranging herd. Many a yearling spike horn has grown into a very nice buck by age 3 or 4 if given the chance and proper nutrition.

You also acknowledge that due to the buck dispersal phenomenon the majority of the bucks on your farm were born several miles away. This is precisely why you can't improve genetics by culling. Perhaps those yearling bucks did not have adequate nutrition as fawns.

Give them a chance. You have the most influence over age (trigger control).....some influence over nutrition....and virtually no influence over genetics. Do yourself and your deer herd a favor and forget about culling yearling bucks.

I think we actually agree more than we disagree.... I know you can’t change a wild deer herds genetics... but if we are talking about bucks that dispersed onto your property. You have a higher rate of keeping those bucks around from 1 1/2 years on. Some still leave but some stay. I personally don’t cull bucks in that age range because for me any deer over 120 I consider a trophy and most will get there... my statement was simply for true trophy hunting... I’m talking 150 class or larger. Most will never make it there and some deer just don’t have the make up. Just like I don’t have the make up to play in the NBA. I don’t think it’s unreasonable if someone is trying to shoot booners that part of their management is shooting deer that likely wouldn’t have the genetic make up to get there in the first place to make space for a young buck that is genetically better than the one being taken out... assuming he makes your place home. This isn’t trying to improve genetics it’s just trying to give the genetically superior deer a better chance on your property. The problem comes with trying to determine what deer is genetically superior. That’s why that strategy probably does more harm than good.

 

[S.T.Fanatic]

I agree with peplin creek as well. He just beet me to it with his explanation which I assumed he was getting at it the first place.

 

[yoderjac]

You can't change the base genetics in a free ranging herd by culling bucks, but you can change the epigenetics over a few generations by improving habitat provided you are working on a sufficient scale to cover home ranges. So, I think there is a better strategy. I've heard two somewhat reasonable explanations for culling bucks. One is culling older bucks with "subpar" antlers because they can be bullies and push out better antlered bucks. I doubt this is generally the case. Mature deer have a dominance behavior mechanism that works pretty well and generally does not result in dangerous fights. The big fights usually occur when bucks from different areas collide and dominance has not been established by the time they are driven to risky behavior by testosterone. While I understand the argument, my guess is that it is rare for a "subpar" bully buck to result in fewer larger antlered bucks.

A second argument here is related to what Pep says. Culling the "current crop". This theory says buck habitat is different than deer habitat and there is only so much to go around so removing deer from the same age with "subpar" antlers improves the available "buck habitat" for high scoring bucks. While this may be true in theory (I don't know), it relies on hunters abilities to field age deer very accurately. I would say there are very few cases where this is practical.

Peps description is a subset of this targeting one particular age class (1 1/2 year old deer) They are probably much easier to identify than older age classes. However, 1 1/2 year old deer can have early racks that are quite deceiving of their long-term potential.

Personally I think a much better culling strategy is to kill momma. Since by improving habitat over generations can unlock genetic potential in a few generations. Fawns born on your land should have less epigenetic limitation that fawns that disperse to your land. Since it is does that cause young bucks to disperse, I suggest targeting them. When deciding which does to shoot to keep populations in check, a doe with twin fawns is a good target. Odds are that one of those fawns is a buck. With mom out of the picture, a button buck is much more likely to stay where he was born. There are several advantages to this. One of the largest risks of death for a buck is during relocation. The less familiar they are with the location, the more chance of predation, injury/disease, or whatever. Second, any epigenetic improvements made as a result of your property stay on your property.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[WTNUT]

What do the 15% decline numbers refer to? Your harvest data? Harvest data for the whole surrounding area (5,000+ acres)? The region? Does it refer to all bucks? Is it stratified by age class? If it is only from your property, do you harvest enough bucks to have statistical significance?

The reason I ask these questions is because it is important to first determine if you really have a nutrition problem or simply an attraction/holding problem, or even an age problem. Probably the first thing I would look at is timber management since 80% of your land is in timber. Timber management can address both nutrition and attraction.

When I click your picture I don't see the zone or location. That would be helpful to know to address the corn/beans question if it really comes to that.

Thanks,

Jack

Trust me I have done this a long time. I have a nutrition problem. To answer your question, regardless of age structure I have seen about a 15 percent decline in antler size and body weight for our bucks.


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[WTNUT]

OK. Let's go with the assumption that your problem is the result of a nutrient deficiency. But, first let me say I greatly admire all the habitat work you've done and your willingness to share it! Sometimes we get too close to our work and don't see the obvious. That's what's great about forums like this one! Maybe when this is over you'll go back, revisit, and re-evaluate the causes you list.

Bucks need lots of protein at the right time to realize full antler growth potential. That's the stress period and it mostly occurs at the sametime throughout the latitudes. What are the sources of protein supply in your management area? Usually, we assume there's not enough and take about to grow plants to supply a potential shortfall. Between corn and soybeans the answer is clear. Soybeans. But, again, I'd recommend another look at the situation to really understand what, if anything, has changed to cause what you perceive to be a problem. Sometimes Murphy and Random show up at the sametime.

I understand. I have and manage about 3,500 acres all together. At this farm, really the only thing that has change is the lack of supplemental feeding via corn and corn and bean plots. As for protein sources from 2000 to 2015 they got protein through natural vegetation, soybeans and lots of well fertilized clover and alfalfa plots. None of that has changed.


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[yoderjac]

Trust me I have done this a long time. I have a nutrition problem. To answer your question, regardless of age structure I have seen about a 15 percent decline in antler size and body weight for our bucks.


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I know that and I did not intend to be demeaning by asking those questions. It is the fact that you've been managing so much for so long that made me ask those questions. Without unlimited funding and time, we are all limited by our dirt. You know most of a deer's diet does not come from our plots. The impact hat food plots can have on nutrition is mostly filling the gaps when nature is not providing quality foods (I know you know this). The point is that at one point you were able to support deer at a certain weight/antler size within an age class and you are saying that metric has dropped by 15%.

Given you've been in this ball game so long, I would think you could identify what has changed from a nutrition perspective (Neighboring soybean farm shut down, deer density increased, or whatever). You could be absolutely right that you have a nutrition problem. Either something has changed or there is an issue with the measurement. That was why I asked about how it was being measured.

Presuming it ends up being a nutrition issue, I'd focus on wherever you think your biggest gap is. If summer is your stress period, I'd focus on the beans. When I was dealing with very high densities and was using Eagle Forage beans, I could not surface broadcast a cover crop in the standing beans simply because they are indeterminate and stay green way to late. I ended up solving that with a bushhog. It was emotionally hard since I worked so hard to finally get beans to canopy with my populations at the time, but In reality I was actually creating more food. I bushhogged lanes through the beans. This actually created more edges and deer love to use those edges. I then surface broadcast my cover crop (CC/WR/PTT in my case) through those lanes. Some seed like the WR would hang around in the beans and still germinate. Most of the brassica ended up growing in the lanes.

My area is like yours in that deer ignore pods unless we have a mast crop failure. If cost is not an issue, I'd go with the Eagle beans if you think summer is your issue. They are a bit more expensive (not that much on a per acre basis) but they produce a lot of forage for me compared to ag beans.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[swat1018]

I would plant corn and beans, even if it's just a bean plot with about 10-15% corn added together and drilled. I don't do lots of corn and beans, but mainly because I don't have a huge acreage to work with. When doing just 15 acres of plots, I have to bank on stuff with minimal chance of failure. Clover, rye/oats, and brassica are my go-to plots. I always have beans, but many times don't survive, so I put in fall plots over them. Good luck, I'm certain you have it figured out.