Late summer clover herbicide application

[DRG3]

Trying to think through my best options here-

I have a first year (last fall) clover planting that is struggling with both grasses and warm season broadleaf weeds. Up to now, I had been determined to use mechanical controls (IE me and a weedeater) and not use herbicide for cost and fear of damaging the first year planting. I have prevented everything from going to seed, but I'm still losing the fight.

The species composition is highly varied according to the "Seek" App on my phone and my limited knowledge- there is some yellow nutsedge, barnyard grass, carpet grass (tied with nutsedge for my least favorite), Johnson grass, probably some other grass species that i haven't let go to seed, and a number of broadleafs like, fireweed, marestail, thistle, boneset.

I have some IMOX on hand and could apply it this weekend. My question is- being this late in the year, am I going to gain anything by spraying now, or best to just trying to keep things from going to seed and deal with it via herbicide next spring?

Thanks in advance

 

[omicron1792]

Why not plant heavy cereal rye on it, cut it. Then in spring spray imox?

 

[omicron1792]

Also take a back back sprayer and hit the bad actors with gly

 

[DRG3]

Here is an example from a few weeks ago. I can sure enough do the cereal rye planting but if I want to frost seed will that be effective?
Also I’m afraid there might be to many bad actors to gly them all.

This pic doesn’t show the broadleaf weeds but it does give an idea of the overall state

 

[FarmerDan]

Lot's of good posts here on the subject...

https://habitat-talk.com/threads/imox-generic-raptor-anyone-use-it-on-clover.10817/page-3

 

[DRG3]

Lot's of good posts here on the subject...

https://habitat-talk.com/threads/imox-generic-raptor-anyone-use-it-on-clover.10817/page-3

Great info, I'm reading through now and looking at the linked posts. I will have to read in full later. I too have the smartweed battle and didn't realize that mowing it is why it hugs the ground. It may be my new least favorite weed of the day..

Anyhow, It looks like you did some application in July and some folks on that thread did at least a follow up in Sept. Id love some additional thoughts on me spraying this late in the year vs waiting? Curious if there is an advantage or disadvantage vs using a cereal gran. I do see the comment that IMOX may be wrong for new clover. This plot was planted last fall and came up fully in the spring

 

[omicron1792]

Great info, I'm reading through now and looking at the linked posts. I will have to read in full later. I too have the smartweed battle and didn't realize that mowing it is why it hugs the ground. It may be my new least favorite weed of the day..

Anyhow, It looks like you did some application in July and some folks on that thread did at least a follow up in Sept. Id love some additional thoughts on me spraying this late in the year vs waiting? Curious if there is an advantage or disadvantage vs using a cereal gran. I do see the comment that IMOX may be wrong for new clover. This plot was planted last fall and came up fully in the spring

Lots of knowledge gained here.

Clover produces a ton of nitrogen. Grasses love nitrogen.

You can either plant the grass you want, or battle grasses You don’t.

I spray imox in spring, because you can’t plant grains for 4 months after spraying. So I use imox to kill rye and limit grasses over summer. Then replant rye in fall.

You really should only use imox once a year. There is no issue using it this late. You can also use Clethodim and 2-4db to do the same thing.

 

[archer8030]

Lots of knowledge gained here.

Clover produces a ton of nitrogen. Grasses love nitrogen.

You can either plant the grass you want, or battle grasses You don’t.

I spray imox in spring, because you can’t plant grains for 4 months after spraying. So I use imox to kill rye and limit grasses over summer. Then replant rye in fall.

You really should only use imox once a year. There is no issue using it this late. You can also use Clethodim and 2-4db to do the same thing.

When you say "rye," you're referring to cereal rye, not ryegrass, correct?

 

[omicron1792]

In general yes.

I am experimenting with some high sugar and Tetraploid perennial rye grasses. But that’s not really related to this topic.

 

[birdog]

I am no expert but here is what I would do this late in the season. Spray cleth hot on the grass and save your imox for spring. Broad leafs are just about done for the year so no need to address those now. I hit my plots with cleth 3 weeks ago with great results. Someone please jump in and correct me if this is bad advise, I'm still learning!

 

[yoderjac]

Personally, I think we often jump the gun with herbicides. Yes, there are cases when we have specific problematic weeds to deal with, but other than that, are we really looking at things the right way? Are we evaluating a cool season plant (clover) during the middle of summer? If I mow as the season is changing to favor cool season crops and the clover does not bounce back sufficiently, one of two things is generally wrong. 1) I did not plant using best practices with a good burndown and a fall planted WR nurse crop following by timely mowing release the first spring, or 2) the field is is getting older and it is time to rotate.

You would not even know they were clover fields when you see my fields in the summer. Summer weeds are sometime chest high. When I mow just as the weather is favoring the clover, the bounce back is amazing. I find very little value in trying to force clover into a monoculture. It is costly in time and money to spray herbicides which defeats one of the best features of perennial clover.

 

[DRG3]

All great info and really interesting takes.
I think here is where I have landed for this year- for this plot-
Since it's a first year clover planting AND since it's my only established perennial plot on this farm, I am not going to spray it until spring. It's hot and it's dry here. I'm concerned that if I spray this plot it may damage the new clover, and my other 2 plots fail to come up, I'll have no plots on this piece. Normally, I'd take the risk but I think not here. I will wait and see what my other 2 plots do and decide where to go next spring. I have planted an oat/chicory plot and another Oat/Clover plot in the same general area.

I don't think this is a perfect solution, but it's where i landed in this case. I'm concerned in particular about the smartweed and grasses- but so be it for now. Also I am interested to see what happens once the summer pressure backs off the cool season clover as Yoderjack mentioned.

Somthing else I am thinking here- this plot had been fallow for 2 years. Last fall I killed it with Gly and planted an oat/ clover mix, which I mowed this spring to release. My theory here is that because it laid fallow, the seedbank built up or was already built up and maybe I should have done a couple of annual plots to allow for a couple years of weed kill off before going with a perennial plot. Maybe next time I go from fallow to a plot I'll do a couple of annual plots.

 

[Tpstacy]

Personally, I think we often jump the gun with herbicides. Yes, there are cases when we have specific problematic weeds to deal with, but other than that, are we really looking at things the right way? Are we evaluating a cool season plant (clover) during the middle of summer? If I mow as the season is changing to favor cool season crops and the clover does not bounce back sufficiently, one of two things is generally wrong. 1) I did not plant using best practices with a good burndown and a fall planted WR nurse crop following by timely mowing release the first spring, or 2) the field is is getting older and it is time to rotate.

You would not even know they were clover fields when you see my fields in the summer. Summer weeds are sometime chest high. When I mow just as the weather is favoring the clover, the bounce back is amazing. I find very little value in trying to force clover into a monoculture. It is costly in time and money to spray herbicides which defeats one of the best features of perennial clover.

I'm in a similar boat here, I've got waist high weeds in 1 and 2 year old clover plots. However I don't have a way to mow them right now otherwise I would. I do have the ability to spray imazethapyr/cleth/gly, but I'm wondering if that will do anything since they're heading out. Should I just leave the fields alone and hit with imazethapyr or mow when I'm able to next year?

 

[yoderjac]

All great info and really interesting takes.
I think here is where I have landed for this year- for this plot-
Since it's a first year clover planting AND since it's my only established perennial plot on this farm, I am not going to spray it until spring. It's hot and it's dry here. I'm concerned that if I spray this plot it may damage the new clover, and my other 2 plots fail to come up, I'll have no plots on this piece. Normally, I'd take the risk but I think not here. I will wait and see what my other 2 plots do and decide where to go next spring. I have planted an oat/chicory plot and another Oat/Clover plot in the same general area.

I don't think this is a perfect solution, but it's where i landed in this case. I'm concerned in particular about the smartweed and grasses- but so be it for now. Also I am interested to see what happens once the summer pressure backs off the cool season clover as Yoderjack mentioned.

Somthing else I am thinking here- this plot had been fallow for 2 years. Last fall I killed it with Gly and planted an oat/ clover mix, which I mowed this spring to release. My theory here is that because it laid fallow, the seedbank built up or was already built up and maybe I should have done a couple of annual plots to allow for a couple years of weed kill off before going with a perennial plot. Maybe next time I go from fallow to a plot I'll do a couple of annual plots.

Oats/WR was a problem. Oats don't overwinter. WR does and it grow quite low temps. That means it gets a huge jump on summer weeds. It also has a chemical effect on weeds that helps keep them at bay as well as using resources that weeds would otherwise have available. This lets mow the WR each time it get tall enough to shade out clover to help release the clover slowly. The WR will stay alive and continue to help. By the time the WR dies naturally in the summer, the clover should be well established.

I think our theory is flawed. You can't eliminate the seed bank. All you can do is to advantage your crop over the seed bank. I often rest fields for a few years and use no herbicides and don't plant them. I just mow them once a year. Why? Because when we use a broad spectrum like gly, we disadvantage some weeds and advantage others. I want a healthy mix of weeds with my crops. After the field has rested a few years, I bring it back into production. I will generally plant a short-lived perennial like medium red clover in these fields the fall before the rest begins. The medium red clover will last a couple years and I'll typically rest the field for 3 years.

I find resting fields is much more important if I'm using post emergent herbicides. It was especially problematic when I was planting RR beans and corn and using gly as both a burndown and post emergent herbicide. I'm now using a mix of liberty and gly for burn down and have stopped using RR crops. This has significantly reduced problematic weeds and given me a much healthier mix of weeds that are beneficial to deer.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[Rit]

In general yes.

I am experimenting with some high sugar and Tetraploid perennial rye grasses. But that’s not really related to this topic.

I agree that is for another topic…..but I have read some good stuff about them for deer… Did you actually plant it or are you planning to?

 

[omicron1792]

I have bought it. I have lots of trails I plant and I need a hardier grass, so chose a diploid high sugar ryegrass from deer creek seed. Diploid is more mat like so thought it would hold up on trails. Tetraploid is more bunch like and naturally sweeter.

Planting time in alabama is October so will plant then. Gonna plant just like I was using cereal rye (will use some of that too) with clovers, hairy vetch, and a small bit of brassica.

 

[omicron1792]

High Sugar Perennial Ryegrass (Coated)

High sugar perennial ryegrass is an improved forage grass. Its high levels of sugar and superb high digestibility make it a premium forage grass. High sugar perennial ryegrass is a great choice for mixes or a solid stand of forage. It tolerates lower soil fertility levels very well and it has...

www.deercreekseed.com

 

[yoderjac]

diploid is not a proffered deer food ad it can become invasive in some circumstances. Tetraploid is supposed to be more attractive to deer. I planted some this year in an area where I need some sort of grass. I abhor fescue so I give it a try. So far, it is growing well but no deer use to speak of. We have a lot of deer food in the area at this time of year, so I'll keep watching it for use.

 

[omicron1792]

That was true about 10 years ago Jack. Now they have diploid varieties that have higher sugar levels with same attractiveness. I’ll link the studies in a bit

Also annuals tend to become invasive whether Tetraploid or diploid, less so with perennials

 

[omicron1792]

What’s really in your ryegrass?

Germinal’s Aber High Sugar Grass varieties have been bred to be more palatable, nutritious, productive and environmentally friendly.

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